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  • #17073
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    I must update my opinion on Bleed. Turns out we had misinterpreted the rules on parrying. When they spoke of varying weapon sizes parrying all, half or none of the damage, my play group thought they were referring to how many of the weapons armor points were to be applied, all half or none.

    Now we realize that parrying in RQ 6 is more like the old Stormbringer parry, but improved as you can’t parry a dragon with your dagger. You parry a broadsword with your target, you block everything. We were still using the weapons armor points and letting damage beyond that go through to armor/hit points.

    This makes a little difference to Bleed. Our way, even if you parried, you could be made a bleeder. Now, if you parry a crit, you can’t get Bled because no damage gets through. They have to choose bypass parry to get damage in.

    Not sure how I feel about the new parry rules. I really enjoyed chipping away at the PCs shield, making them feel like they’d better dispatch this foe quickly before their parry is worthless. And I wonder how the players will react should they do a lot of damage to someone and none of it gets through, then the guy with the greatsword rolls crap for damage and still gets past the parry. Seems like everyone will want greatswords.

    #17032
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Yes, it is a great set of rules mechanics and I hope I’m not coming across as too negative, because I still love Runequest warts and all better than any other gaming system. I just feel that a few things here and there could be improved. One should always seek to improve and evolve.

    #17031
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Returning to original problem of Broyan vs the Bat.

    What if:
    If Bat fumbles and Broyan criticals – Broyan uses Force Failure and Stun Location on the wing. Bat dives down without control and takes 18d6 (due to size) and 52d6 damage to four random due to its size and locations due to height of 260 meters?


    Broyan did not attack the Bat hoping for a crit while the Bat fumbled. That’s not a plan. Broyan had a plan. He knew what he was going to do. That doesn’t preclude a Bat fumble following a Broyan crit, it just means the plan didn’t require it.

    #17026
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    I’ve got a mixed group of young players in their 20’s and older guys in their 40’s and 50’s. Not a single one of them likes Luck Points and threw them out. The combat effects ARE satisfying. Bleed not withstanding. The old fumble table was spectacularly satisfying as well. Why is that gone? Skill augments are irrelevant. Those types of bonuses were different yet existed in RQ3. You got situational modifiers.

    Here’s the real issue: Hero Wars are coming. Can RQ6 Glorantha handle it? I ask because I’ve been told on podcasts by Jeff Richards and MOB that the reason they dumped RQ and went to HQ in the first place (a huge mistake of epic proportions btw, HQ is fine, but don’t dump RQ), is because after Strangers In Prax they thought that the system couldn’t handle high level adventuring. That it broke down at that point. I disagree. SiP was what we’d been waiting for. 20 years later those guys aren’t even all that big a deal.

    You get into the Hero Wars, and the way the mystical magic of Glorantha works, great heroes attract great heroes. The PCs will go beyond what we see in SiP.

    And yet now it is universally accepted that RQ6 has nerfed the power levels and the game works best for low to middle level characters.

    Well who needs that? who needs a new system, after waiting all this time, that isn’t even capable of simulating things the original game could?

    I obviously love RQ. I’ve wanted to see RQ reunited with Glorantha forever. I love your work Loz. I want to see TDM succeed. So take this as constructive criticism from a fan (or as Jonny Depp puts it, a delighted employer), and realize that there seems to be a culture, from Jeff Richards and Greg Stafford on down, that seems to think there is something wrong with actually having high end, powerful characters. The game worked fine. They stopped believing in it. The “answer” isn’t to nerf the game, the answer is to embrace it.

    RQ6 is a great edition. I like a lot of what you’ve done. What I don’t like and no one in my group seems to like and what I’ve heard others say they don’t like, is that it’s power levels are nerfed. That it seems to be deliberately designed to avoid “Stranger in Prax Creep” for lack of a better word. Or in short, high level adventuring.

    That’s the impression I get, I may be totally off base. But I feel like, by now, we should be having high level adventures printed. With epic foes on epic quests of mythological proportions. Gathering Thunder was good. Colymar campaign was a taste. Neither were RQ.

    All I’m saying is, if RQ Glorantha is finally coming back, don’t nerf it. Don’t shy away from high end adventures. They’re long overdue.

    And yes, it annoys the F out of me to see a version of D&D move on to the Hero Wars setting while we’re just FINALLY getting RQ back in Glorantha. I’d rather watch Russell Wilson throw on the goal line in the Super Bowl with Lynch standing there than think about D&D players having the Hero Wars in Glorantha while I watch RQ crank out mid to low level adventures for what remains of my life because Jeff and Greg don’t think RQ can handle anything tougher.

    #17025
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    A bit of an over reaction on this bleed issue IMO. Here is what kicked it off:

    It shouldn’t be simply the realization that one has 20+ Runespells of the right variety, full iron gear, and 200+ points of stored pow,
    Did you not read my post? It was so simple even a Balazaring could do it. Figuring out HOW was the great genius of King Broyan. No 20+ runespells or 200 points stored power required.

    No, all the players have to do now is just take Bleed.

    IMO, Dissolv, who evidently didn’t bother to read my original post about how simple RQ3 could have simulated King Broyan defeating the Crimson Bat, decided to make hyperbolic claims of 20+ Runespells and 200 points stored power.

    so I responded with now all he has to do is take bleed.

    This isn’t a thread about complaining about the bleed mechanic or if I agree or not with Loz that it is OP. It’s about how RQ3 worked just fine at the high end and in fact, one didn’t even need to be a high end adventurer to do some of the epic things described in Gloranthan Lore.

    That RQ6 does not allow such things is a step in the wrong direction. I would hope that Glorantha Runequest would put that back on track. I suspect it will. We were promised the Hero Wars, not the Nerfed Heroes Wars.

    #17019
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    I think variety is important. I think most people are attracted to RQ and Glorantha because of the varieties of roles they can play and the freedom to evolve their characters in any way they desire.

    Which is why forcing every character to carry a Heal Folk magic spell is not really acceptable. Yet it’s mandatory if Bleed is a combat maneuver you can take even if only one point damage gets through. If Bleed had a minimum damage requirement, I’d not be so against it. But we’ve found that the one point damage is enough requirement to be a major exploitation point in the entire mechanic.

    Bear in mind, Bleed is cumulative. So multiple bleeds really increases the clock. Also, heal takes an AP. so now you have one less parry. Which leads to more bleeding, which counters the whole heal action spent in the first place. And still your skills are decreasing. And all my party has to do is get one point of damage through to their opponents and they’ve started this whole vicious cycle. Now sometimes other combat maneuvers make more sense, but 90% of the time, Bleed ’em all and let Orlanth sort ’em out is the best strategy.

    If I could post gifs on here (or knew how), I’d post a gif of one point of damage in a sword and sorcery setting (the guy from Princes Bride gets his cheek nicked) and a gif showing one point of damage in RQ6 as written (Pugsly chops off Tuesdays arm on the stage, blood sprays all over the audience “A most powerfable hit!”)

    That and the current version of the rules you can’t simulate things that are known to have happened in the games setting (such as kill the Crimson Bat). Now granted, when the new version of RQ comes out, that may be solved and that would be great. I just don’t see any impetus in that direction. The game seems to be going in another direction entirely.

    #17018
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    My problem as a game master is that it’s either or with spirits in the RAW. They are either devastating or they’re totally negated. And no GM wants to arbitrarily devastate the party. No good GM anyhow. Not unless there’s a compelling storytelling reason to do so. And if you need that reason, you can make the ghost too powerful. In the RAW, all spirits are simply too powerful.

    I’ve made the following changes. Further playtesting will determine if they’re viable changes that add more fun to the game and don’t imbalance it. Spirit Resistance works just like Damage Resistance used to work in RQ3. It matches the intensity vs the damage in spirit combat and either resists all of it, or none get through. Spirit Block works just like armor. It blocks X amount of damage for X points of spirit block. Spirit Shield maintains some of it’s flavor but feels more interactive simply by making it work just like a shield. The PC must roll their spectral combat skill to “parry” an amount of damage equal to the value of the spirit shield (it being a Gloranthan variable Folk Magic spell).

    Hopefully, these will address the issues and make spirits something competitive and scary, but survivable. Leaving the necessity of a shaman in the party only to deal with the very large spirits and excorcisms.

    #17007
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    I wasn’t referring to bleeding the bat. I was just responding to the previous posters last points. In fact, the whole Bleed mechanic should be available only on crits IMO. By it’s very definition it represents the severing of a major artery. And that is by its very definition, a critical hit. So I would change RQ6 to make Bleed only available on critical hits. That would change a lot of weapons, but it is necessary IMO.

    #17006
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Okay, to answer your questions. Bleed starts reducing their combat skills quickly. That turns a battle around fast. Bleed as many as you can and their skills start declining and the battle is won.

    I didn’t mean intensity 6 spirits, those are pretty powerful I meant power 6, as in the stat for Power is 6. That would be intensity 0 spirit. The weakest. the way spirit combat works in RQ6, by throwing a few of even the weakest spirits at the party can be devastating. The products available to play, however, tend to throw a bunch of intensity 2 or 3 spirits at the party. I hope the changes they made to AiG will fix that. It’s encouraging that they made changes.

    #16992
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    I hope they change it up some. I really like a lot of things about RQ6, but my group has tried so hard to run a campaign around RQ6 and we just prefer RQ3 with a mix of RQ6. The true game killer is bleed. Everyone quickly learns you take Bleed every time you get a combat maneuver if you want to emerge victorious and not have to roll up a new PC. As a GM, I have to be very careful about taking Bleed. The death toll would be insane if I took it any chance I got. Players would have no continuity with their characters.

    Spectral Combat is a little too nerfed in the favor of spirits now too. Ghosts and other spirits are pretty common encounters in many Gloranthan products. In RQ3 the PCs matched their power in spirit combat. Now spectral combat requires they make a to hit at half chance while the spirit is not so encumbered. Since the damage is directly correlated to the chance to hit instead of the willpower stat, the spirits tend to hit for at least twice as much. No matter how powerful the player, they are going to get hit. I could literally throw a bunch of 6 pt ghosts at the party and wipe them out because I’m GOING to hit them. And they can’t heal wounds on lost mp’s. This almost makes a shaman a mandatory character in the group. Then, to make it more frustrating as a GM to employ ghosts, the defense for a shamanless party – spirit block and spirit resistance – completely shut down the ghosts, making them pointless to include in the adventure except as an excuse to make the PC cast the spell. Spiritshield at least leaves open the possibility of the ghosts making it interesting, but then you’re back to square one and the spirits are so much more powerful.

    The idea to make spectral combat more like regular combat with a to hit required isn’t a bad idea, it’s just that the PCs have no armor, they can’t parry. If I want them to understand how truly screwed they are, I have to make a statement by taking out one of their characters. Anything less won’t get the message through. What happens when they play a product that has three or four ghosts like many do and they don’t realize just how screwed they are? Party wipe. And if they do realize? Probably party wipe anyways. suddenly, guardian spirits and fetishes become mandatory. Let’s replace Bert who just died to a ghost with a shaman. Oh, shaman in every party now. Have to. That’s nerfed.

    I hated the old spirit combat of RQ3 and had my own houserules, but something needs to be tweaked with spectral combat in RQ6. Perhaps the answer is to change the spells so they act more like armor, reducing the damage. That would bring down spirit damage to a level the players could contend with. That would also be more scalable. As they get more powerful spells, the ghosts flung at them can become more powerful too.

    Finally, allowances have to be made for high end play. It’s been 30 years real time, the Hero Wars started already. If I can jump into the Hero Wars in 13th Age in Glorantha and not have to spend an entire year of my real life gaining levels to reach the point where I’m having truly epic fun, then NO, I do NOT want to spend longer getting my RQ6 character past the nerfed stage to reach the truly epic and FUN point of the campaign just to be told that that’s not going to work for RQ6.

    MAKE IT WORK AT THAT LEVEL – or don’t bother with RQ at all. It’s almost like you think players should be ashamed to have a Hero level character. When instead, that should be the GOAL. You promised the Hero Wars. Not the farmer wars. Not the Tula Wars. Not the Low Level characters Wars. The HERO WARS.

    Deliver. I think after 30 plus years, a faithful customer shouldn’t have to see a version of D&D do what RQ cannot. It’s not an unreasonable demand.

    #16990
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    It shouldn’t be simply the realization that one has 20+ Runespells of the right variety, full iron gear, and 200+ points of stored pow,
    Did you not read my post? It was so simple even a Balazaring could do it. Figuring out HOW was the great genius of King Broyan. No 20+ runespells or 200 points stored power required.

    No, all the players have to do now is just take Bleed.

    That seems to be RQ6 in a nutshell. “1 pt damage got past your armor? I take Bleed for my combat effect. You lose.”


    Oh, and btw, it’s not the game systems fault if characters walk around with 200 pts stored power when the published material hands out power crystals like candy.

    But the published source material is very typically — you encounter a war/hunting party. Most of the group are fairly ordinary but there is normally one, sometimes two Rune level threats. It always seemed that to use the published material the players were almost forced to quickly ascend to Rune status themselves. Given time, we too wound up with a very high powered campaign with the players making direct, personal contributions to the Hero Wars.


    Your job as the GM is to balance the scenarios. Take the runelords out if they’re too powerful for your PCs. make them just as weak as the rest of the people you encountered. As the players get more powerful, start replacing the ordinary enemies with more runelord equivalent opponents. Or make the runelords more powerful.

    As for balance, that is also the GM’s responsibility. Characters cannot go up “too fast”. They can only go up as fast as the GM lets them. And the dice don’t always allow it either. So how fast the players go up isn’t in their power to control. Nor should the GM let it be. That is true with RQ2/RQ3 and still with RQ6.

    After looking over RQ6, it is incredibly clear that a direct and easy path to all of this has been taken away.

    Care to explain what this “direct and easy path” is? I’m betting it’s really just a GM letting the players control how often they roll to go up. Because the increase in skill mechanic has ONLY been altered to limit the number of rolls, while actually increasing in many cases the frequency. “roll to go up” in RQ3 is not the same thing as automatically going up. A lot of people act like the players somehow can just game the situation. “I climb a tree to see what’s up ahead. I get to mark my climb.” Well, noooo, actually, you don’t. The GM says if you get to mark your skills after a successful use.

    There is not a night of gaming in which I don’t say something like “you made your search but you don’t get to mark it.” and multiple times I’m asked “I made my “X”, can I mark it?” and many times the answer is no. There has to be skin in the game, if you catch my meaning, for a roll to qualify to be marked.

    Which renders pretty much your entire complaint untrue. You go up no faster in RQ3 than you would in RQ6. And if you do happen to, so what? It’s not like getting heroic is a BAD thing, although Greg and Co. sometimes act like it is.

    You can’t take on the Crimson bat in RQ6.


    And therein lies the problem. As I said in another thread, they didn’t promise the Gardener Wars, the Tula Wars, the Glorious Storyteller Wars or the Low Level Adventurer Wars. They promised the HERO WARS.

    After three decades, they need to deliver.

    #16188
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Well,there are websites that have that stuff statted up, but they’re not official. The Crimson Bats RQ stats, however, are official. The spells I described on how Broyan could manage to kill the Bat are official. But we have nothing to go on when it comes to Harrek, the Red Emperor or the Bear demigod. I’m certain, however, that it wouldn’t require 20 years and a narrative rpg to do justice in answering any of these questions, RQ3 could handle it just fine.

    #16150
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    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Could the lost soul refer to Androgynous? His role in all this sure has been lost. She is as powerful as Harrek and Jar-Eel, but seemingly he does nothing but appear in the boardgame with nary a plot.

    #16149
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    By the time Harrek slew the bear god, he’d already killed the Red Emperor. going on a heroquest and slaying a Bear God is impressive, but it’s not like slaying Orlanth, or Shargash, it’s just a bear god. The Red Emperor was probably a much tougher fight.

    And in the end the bear wears Harrek as much as he wears the Bear. So it may have been by mutual agreement.

    #16132
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    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Well, I was mostly working with a RQ3 example. Until Adventures in Glorantha comes out and we’ve got updated materials, there isn’t enough there to guess how it could be done in RQ6.

    With damage being so nerfed in RQ6, however, I doubt it could accurately handle Broyan killing the bat in the way I’ve described. The Might Folk Magic spell is tepid. Same for Bladesharp. Even Truesword is so castrated in RQ6 that it is good as worthless.

    You can’t compel the bat to surrender for two reasons: first, the conditions of having a tangible advantage does not exist. Two, that’s not historically correct. Broyan disabled the Bat and it fell from the sky. He didn’t capture it or make it surrender. I’m not considering how the game can handle the question How CAN we beat the Bat? I’m trying to show how the game can handle the question how DID Broyan kill the bat?

    I think there’s been a trend for 20 odd years that started with the misconception that Runequest 3 could not handle high level adventuring on the epic scale of the Hero Wars. Yet, one of the most epic battles of all was Broyan defeating the Crimson Bat and Runequest 3 made that so easy even a Balazaring could do it. The result of this mistaken mindset was the delay of the Hero Wars product for 20 years as well as the evolution of RQ3 into RQ6 which is frankly so nerfed it actually cannot handle the Hero Wars. it’s like they gave up and only printed a nerfed version of Runequest to satisfy the old timers instead of realizing the First Rule of Issaries: The customer is ALWAYS right.

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