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  • #8053
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator

    With apologies to the artist: merging the Tarsh noble with an Assyrian beard.

    [img]http://www.glorantha.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/39oki-Tarshite-Noble2.JPG[/img]

    #8052
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    The Red Goddess’ worshipers bind her into her existing position in the Cosmos. Only by sacrificing her most dedicated and aggressive worshipers and, in particular, her son can she achieve her next mystical stage.

    Interesting. And the history of re/creating gods in Time (Nysalor, Zistor, the Red Goddess) has a long history of unintended consequences, and it can hardly be accidental that in all three examples Orlanth and the Orlanthi are part of the ‘corrective mechanism’.

    #8050
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    But it’s not the scale that I’m wondering about, it’s the solution.

    Until the Red Moon falls, the Goddess cannot achieve enlightenment as the White Moon.

    #8047
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    My brother, this is the moment we stop talking to each other. See you in the communion of Orlanth. 😐

    Thus the risk in answering riddles is aptly shown… 😉

    #8040
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Strangely, “Orlanth and his people” approach the fight “from the north,” which to me sounds more like a lost Vadrudi impulse than any army from Heortland.

    Reads like a mythic resonance harking back to the North Camp destroyed by the descent of Umath which subsequently became the Storm Camp. Thunder Delta is rich in flint, the crystallized blood of Storm Gods.

    #8039
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    The texts agree that during Castle Blue, the elemental scheme of the world shifted. Fire turned into rock and cracked, the composition of the rainbow wavered, air became water, light[n]ing burned underwater, a star disappeared. The sky itself changed. In your opinion, do these phenomena taken as a group seem representative of a binary Storm-Moon conflict? Or something broader in which the “locals” who compiled the Fortunate Succession viewed the storm presence as one of many relatively alien combatants?

    It points to a severe localized alteration of the cosmos potentially threatening the Great Compromise. The mixing of elemental forces seems to echo some of the things the God Learners did, and we all know what happened to them.

    Quote:
    What texts can we discover that make Orlanth a central figure in this fight and shift the weight of evidence?

    Textual sources aren’t required as history demonstrates an ongoing conflict between Moon and Storm. No other pantheon is subject to the same oppression and ongoing attempt to eradicate its Great God. This seems to mirror previous events before and after Time where the cultures of the lowlanders and uplanders are always at odds. There are lesser conflicts with fire and water, but the clash between Moon and Storm for the Middle Air is the defining one towards the close of the Third Age.

    #8036
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Even foreigners [emphasis mine] found excuses to become engaged. The barbarian Orlanthi…
    — Greg Stafford (Fortunate Succession 52)

    True, but… Orlanth’s Ring:…Two stars disappeared the first time, at the Sunstop, and then reappeared in 450. The last star to disappear was torn out violently in the year 1245 during the battle between Orlanth and the Red Goddess at Castle Blue.
    Guide page 649

    The above text is derived from historical records, but for a star to disappear in Orlanth’s constellation at the time of the Battle at Castle Blue indicates a major conflict. Of course it could be argued that the records were made by Orlanthi scribes to associate the rise of the Red Goddess with Nysalor’s birth, demonstrating it was a similar fateful event, but would Lhankor Myr’s priesthood maintain such a lie?

    #8034
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Now as this ancient fragment of Joerg (http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd3/1996.08/0977.html) indicates, Orlanth probably wasn’t even the star of the Castle Blue home team (he shows up among “foreigners”) unless we’re forgetting something about the Bull Shahs and/or the post-Carmanian religious history of the Lakrene tribes.

    But see this this reply:
    http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd3/1996.08/0986.html
    Umm, Orlanth was involved in the battle in the very beginning and so
    was Urox according to the fortunate succession. Remember the Orlanthi
    of Heortland got sore heads when the Red Moon rose?
    – –Peter Metcalfe

    #8032
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    My consideration was, like michaelh points out, amongst other things whether worshippers of both Orlanth and Sedenya, who do not see any enmity between their gods, exist? I am aware that not all orlanthi (or lunars for that matter) are engaged in all-out war between the moon and storm, but the antipathy seems to exist among all orlanthi and all lunars.

    There’s a significant difference between Orlanthi and worshippers of Orlanth. Orlanthi culture worships not only Orlanth and his relatives, but also the Lightbringers, many of whom are foreign gods who joined in his quest. Most of them are more neutral towards the Lunars but they still hate Chaos. Some of his household are bound by blood ties to Orlanth. It’s also worth noting that whilst the Lunars ’embrace’ Chaos as part of their worldview, the majority don’t embrace it literally, and its most blatant aspects (such as the Crimson Bat) are kept well away from the core provinces, and if seen there would terrify the populace as much as they do those in the outer provinces. This means that so long as Lunars don’t display obvious Chaos taint, many Orlanthi can and will deal with them, though some tensions might remain.

    In some ways the decline of the Elmal cult and the rise of the Yelmalio cult prefigures the effect of lowland Pelorian cults on the uplands – by weakening Orlanth’s thane it also weakens the unity of the upland cultures. This isn’t just a new Lunar-inspired phenomenon – it’s happened before.

    In virtually all of the Lunar conquests, save where Orlanth is useful, most of his worshipers have instead turned to open worship of Barntar (though Orlanth worship may carry on in secret). There seems to be a distinct pattern to Lunar dealings with Orlanth: either ban or insert Lunar-friendly priests into temple hierarchies, whilst working towards assimilation, until Orlanth worship becomes a declining rural (pagan!) faith, held only by the outliers of society: bandits, outlaws, rebels. And the Lunars aren’t entirely anti-Storm Gods – they’ve been trying to introduce the more manageable cult of Doburdan, a storm god enslaved by the Red Emperor.

    And we have a very definite indicator of Imperial policy of what happens when the Lunars initiate the Windstop, having imprisoned Orlanth. It’s unlikely they fully predicted the outcome, but as a sign of intent it is unmistakable.

    #8017
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    To open up a more secular sideline on Mr Yellow’s great theological questions, you guys finally helped me understand the note of apocalyptic desperation that creeps into the escalating South War strategy as the Wane waxes. The old “maddened search for a route to the sea / warm water port” hypothesis is very useful in uncovering what an effectively landlocked empire is trying to do in its push through Sartar across Prax to Pavis and then down to miserable Corflu, but not so hot on why now. How did this uh spiral from protecting the trade routes to killing a god? Why can’t we take our time?

    Given the nature of the cosmos, in which everything is reliant upon magic and is magical, I suspect you can’t divide the religious from the secular, and the quest for the sea embodies not merely economic and imperial ambitions, but a much greater intent: As one of the Great Gods, Orlanth is fundamental to the existence of Glorantha, and ultimately the Red Goddess aspires to taking his place. The geography isn’t just territory, it’s a region with implicit religious and mythical implications, and Dragon Pass and the Holy Country are intimately associated with Orlanth and Ernalda, just as the sea still rises and falls according to the fragment of an ancient broken Moon goddess. The tides could be exerting an irresistible pull on the Empire.

    #8011
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    1) How do a “lunar orlanthi” of Sylila react when he hears the Red Emperor declare celebration of the death of Orlanth after the fall of Whitewall? That the imperial troops, who preach inclusiveness and tolerance suddenly oppresses the worship of a god, who is otherwise known as the great ally of the Red Goddess in his homeland?

    The Lunar ideology is based on the concept We Are All Us, but like all ideologies us is people who think and believe as us, not the others who don’t. And, in the wider Pelorian culture Orlanth is and always has been the hostile other who slew the Sun, and more recently contested at Castle Blue against the Red Goddess’ right to exist, something he still doesn’t accept as they are effectively in competition for the domain of the Middle Air. In addition, the Goddess embodies Chaos, something Orlanth and all his kin fought against. The two deities are philosophically diametrically opposed, and the cultures they embody – Solar/Lunar versus Storm/Air – are similarly opposed by the culture and custom of lowlanders versus uplanders. (Consider the cultural conflict in the uplands between the worshipers of Yelmalio and Orlanth).

    In the Empire, Orlanth worship is only tolerated where it is a useful tool (such as on the borders with Dorastor – which has too much Chaos even for the Lunars) and proscribed elsewhere, save in the outer provinces where it either poses no threat or is in the process of being eroded away by cultural assimilation by means of the cult of the Seven Mothers.

    Quote:
    2) Is the Red Goddess and the Orlanth worshipped inside the glowline philosophically able to agree on the nature of Chaos?

    Individuals might (though they’d better be Illuminated to avoid the Spirits of Reprisal) but on a wider level, no.

    In very approximate terrestrial terms, I imagine it’s a little like the divide between Zoroastrianism and Hinduism, where in the former a Daeva is a hostile supernatural entity and in the later a Devi or Deva is a favorable supernatural entity, only much more so.

    #7892
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator

    With apologies and due respect to the artist, I suspect this might be more realistic? 😕

    Afraid my drawing tools are a bit primitive.

    [img]http://www.glorantha.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/0y8mj-warriorthane.JPG[/img]

    #7891
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator

    They can’t see the Dragon for the Scenery

    This picture features in the Irish advertising campaign for ‘Game of Thrones’ sites… They say there are no dragons, but that ridge line looks very like the spine of a Gloranthan dragon slumbering. 🙂

    http://www.ireland.com/en-gb/campaign/normal-campaign/2014/game-of-thrones
    [img]http://www.glorantha.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/qx619-untouched-by-dragons.JPG[/img]

    #7890
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Actually it is not based on the Dendra panoply. It is based on a bell cuirass like:
    bronze age horseman pic is here, third pic down: http://www.glorantha.com/docs/orlanthi-overview/
    http://www.freemanandsear.com/products/M0223.jpg
    The gorget is based on Thracian pectorals like http://www.thracefoundation.com/images/gallery_projects/thumb_39.jpg

    Must concur that the throat armor looks impractical. Here’s Angus McBride’s take on a Thracian pectoral (trumpeter on the left) and bell cuirass (bodyguard right). Osprey Men-at-Arms ‘The Thracians 700 BC – AD 46’.
    3wtf3-osprey-thyni-night-attack.jpg

    #7788
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    From the psychedelic picture in the Guide, and the bit of the Book of Belintar where he talks about teaching stuff to his beloved household, I might call him The Guru.

    Futhermore, the title given to the Belintar in the Holy Country is derived, in part from the old Esrolian word hypa – deity – and a variant of the Heortling word for king – dur, through a process of consonantal drift into pur, given an Esrolian suffix to be rendered thus purie. The two words together are hyppurie, and through a general process of vowel reduction are in the modern tongue, the hippie.
    🙂

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 131 total)

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