Home Forums Glorantha Glorantha Discussions What is Chaos?

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  • #10072
    Profile photo of Edan Jones
    Edan Jones
    Spectator

    Interesting.

    This does raise another question or two about other foul and cruel deities like Zorak Zoran. Does the god of hate have a Chaotic Aspect?

    Also, the goddess Seseine. She’s described as being the goddess of vile and overwhelming lusts, which disrupt society. This is remarkably similar to how the Heortlings describe Uleria. What separates Chaotic Seseine from Evil but non-Chaotic Uleria? Or is the entity the Heortlings call Uleria merely an incarnation of this Fonritan goddess?

    #10073
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Zorak Zoran is violent, cruel, and destructive, filled with mindless hate and rage. He even animates the death to keep fighting. Yet Zorak Zoran is NOT Chaotic. He is an intrinsic part of the cosmos. There should be some insight into what Chaos is and is not from that fact.

    Uleria is not Seseine and the Heortlings would not confuse the two.

    #10074
    Profile photo of Douglas Crawford
    Douglas Crawford
    Spectator

    … neither, I am pretty sure, do the Heortlings see Uleria, the cosmic goddess of love, as evil…

    #10075
    Profile photo of Edan Jones
    Edan Jones
    Spectator

    Well, I was going from the book of Heortling mythology, which mentions her as a demon whose breathless love breaks apart everything it touches, and whose influence makes people fight or abandon their kin.

    If that’s an old way of thinking and no longer the case, sorry for misunderstanding.

    #10077
    Profile photo of Robin Mitra
    Robin Mitra
    Spectator

    @Douglas Crawford: I do not recall any culture that considers Uleria as evil, and certainly not the Heortlings. She is a well respected deity in Dragon Pass and her ceremonies are not even adultery under Heort’s laws.

    #10080
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    That was a characterization Greg and I were playing around with at the time we were putting together that book (which is an Unfinished Work after all). After writing the Guide and doing the prep work on the Gods Book (which is to be a Core canonical book), I’m not sure I find that characterization universally shared even among the Heortlings.

    #10081
    Profile photo of Douglas Crawford
    Douglas Crawford
    Spectator

    I have to admit to being rather surprised (although I haven’t read Heortling Mythology yet). Given how relaxed the Heotlings are about sex and relationships, I would not have thought demonizing Love was big thing at all. I understand that love can cause conflict and even kinstrife, and might therefore be considered dangerous, but for large sections of Heortling society to view Uleria as an evil demon seems very un-Orlanthi to me…

    #10082
    Profile photo of Edan Jones
    Edan Jones
    Spectator

    Ah thank you Jeff. I knew it was an unfinished work, I just didn’t know which bits weren’t in tune with current thinking. Thanks.

    And Douglas, I don’t think that a demonized Uleria or Uleria aspect would be associated with love, or at least not healthy love. And the Orlanthi have plenty of other gods to fill the gap if need be (Vela the Matchmaker, Niskis, and of course all the gods as Hara).
    But yeah, if the demonic form isn’t around still, or at least isn’t the dominant form, I’m happy to be mistaken.

    #10083
    Profile photo of Douglas Crawford
    Douglas Crawford
    Spectator

    Hmmm… but I thought the Heortlings would still understand Uleria as the ultimate source of all love (both good and unhealthy)… As a member of the original cosmic court she pretty much embodies the love rune…

    #10084
    Profile photo of Douglas Crawford
    Douglas Crawford
    Spectator

    (or should I say is the love rune…)

    #10090
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator

    What separates Chaotic Seseine from Evil but non-Chaotic Uleria?

    Uleria is love (mutual attraction) while Seseine is desire (a want regardless of whether it is returned or not).

    Uleria is limited to love between people.

    Seseine on the other hand can be extended to objects and states (think of a star-wars-type kid wanting to be the best swordsmen ever).

    Because Seseine only cares about the act of desire, her Priestesss are free to inflame the passions of their worshippers into doing anything the Priestesses want (ie their own desires). Seseine does not care about the consequences.

    #10091

    @davidscott The return of the sun is – at least in Orlanthi myth – intrinsically tied to the birth of Time, which has the ritual of the net at its core. Now do that without Chaos…

    The Second Son rites in Heortling male initiation is another firm tie to Chaos.

    Unlike the Lunars who manage to integrate Chaos into their understanding of the universe, the Orlanthi externalized it and its transformation. Still, the Birth of Time and Rufelza’s Blaskarth encounter aren’t really that different.

    A world where Chaos had left would be a world where there would be no renewal of Time, no change, no movement. Do you think that is what the Orlanthi would be satisfied with?

    #10092
    Profile photo of disenchanter
    disenchanter
    Spectator

    I think the Orlanthi would be perfectly fine with a world without Chaos, because:
    1.Chaos is not Change.
    2.Chaos is not Destruction.
    3.Chaos is not Death.
    4.Chaos is not Renewal.
    All of these can exist without Chaos, and Chaos does not birth them – it removes or perverts them!

    #10094
    Profile photo of Edan Jones
    Edan Jones
    Spectator

    To the contrary. While it is not known to the Orlanthi, who might feel fine without it, Chaos is responsible for change in Glorantha. See page 162 in the guide.

    And according to the Cult Compendium, an Ulerian song refers to Chaos as “Mother and Father of the World”, although this may no longer be accurate.

    #10095
    Profile photo of disenchanter
    disenchanter
    Spectator

    The guide also contradicts that idea later in the appendices.
    YGWV – when I have to choose between an internally consistent theory, and a hypothesis that conflates Movement and Chaos, I’ll go with the former.

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