Home Forums Glorantha Glorantha Discussions Sample cultural distribution maps

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  • #6066
    Profile photo of Simon Bray
    Simon Bray
    Spectator

    If you look very, very closely at the area around Sarro on the Orlanthi Map and the most northern of the Jrusteli islands to the right of Curustus you will see that they ARE coloured as being under the Orlanthi Infuence, however the fact that you all missed this suggests I was right in not zooming in and doing every island.

    There are a lot of arguments that could be held about what indicates a cultural influence, for example you could say that Pent is cutlurally influenced by the Gordoni Hsunchen that dwell there, or that Sea Trolls should be indicated around every Gloranthan coast, but the reality is that their cultural impact is minor on the majority of the population.

    We know there are Western Influences in Fonrit, Esrolia, even Pavis, but they are insignificant on maps of this scale.

    On Teleos you could say that each of the trade post dominated by the Kareeshatans, Haragalans etc should be highlighted but they are not. They could have been but my god would these maps be cluttered!

    What was interesting is that the previous incarnation of these maps had each culture and influence in on colour and used hatching. This was hard to read, but meant that I could do a map that overlaid ALL of the cultures on to one map in a glorious mess and you really got a suprise as to the cultures and what was going on in Glorantha.

    Joerg if you want to commission me to do a map showing every human cultural influence in the backwoods of beyond I could do it, for the right money!

    #6067
    Profile photo of Simon Bray
    Simon Bray
    Spectator

    And if I get a chance I will post that map to show you what a lovely mess it is!

    Simon

    #6069
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Simon Bray on October 12, 2013, 16:20
    I could do a map that overlaid ALL of the cultures on to one map in a glorious mess and you really got a suprise as to the cultures and what was going on in Glorantha.

    Joerg if you want to commission me to do a map showing every human cultural influence in the backwoods of beyond I could do it, for the right money!

    How much for a map of every human and nonhuman cultural influence, done in transparencies so the Visible Glorantha can be seen in all its glory and stepping up from the Dawn? Turn on all the layers and you get a mess, but selectively play with it and it would be profoundly useful.

    I know it would represent an enormous amount of work but I for one would pay something for the ability to (for example) click to resolve Talastar into fine shades of Alakoring, Heortling, archaic hsunchen, even more archaic Feldi-Chi (if any) and fugitive foreign elements. The only question right now is can we pay enough to make it worthwhile.

    Even — CRAZY AHEAD — a “proof of concept” tool that abstracts cultural influence down to cult distribution would be a fantastic stretch goal or high-level reward for the gods book. If I can see Flamal in the forests and flickering around elsewhere, or Humkt stabbing eastward or Yelmalio catastrophically appearing all of a sudden here, here and here, this fan will be incredibly happy.

    #6070
    Quote:
    Quote from Simon Bray on October 12, 2013, 16:20
    If you look very, very closely at the area around Sarro on the Orlanthi Map and the most northern of the Jrusteli islands to the right of Curustus you will see that they ARE coloured as being under the Orlanthi Infuence, however the fact that you all missed this suggests I was right in not zooming in and doing every island.

    I noticed and approved (silently) the Wolf Pirate/Yggite territories marked as Orlanthi-influenced.

    Unlike Jeff’s citing of aesthetical reasons to make such decisions (a valid point, and nothing I want to discuss ad nauseum either), I’m interested in further applications of this map.

    Personally, I find the presence of Orlanthi clans or tribes in the heart of Talastar forest less likely than on some mountaintop fortresses from the Vingkotling Age in the peaks of the Skyreach Mountains. Whitewall is a hill country version of such a keep, and the frozen hideout described in one of the older Hero Wars soundbites with the frozen companions might be another such.

    Quote:
    There are a lot of arguments that could be held about what indicates a cultural influence, for example you could say that Pent is cutlurally influenced by the Gordoni Hsunchen that dwell there, or that Sea Trolls should be indicated around every Gloranthan coast, but the reality is that their cultural impact is minor on the majority of the population.

    Sure. One example that took me aback a little as a first reaction was the inclusion of Grazelands and Beast Valley as Orlanthi influenced. But the Vendref clearly are an Orlanthi culture, much like the Jonating serf villages are, too. Beast Valley may not have a human Orlanthi presence, but enough of the Beast folk have close ties with Orlanthi culture to let that pass, rather than extend the white spot of Shadow Plateau to the Upland Marsh. Dragonewt cities or dragonewt controlled valleys don’t need to show up on that scale, either. But that’s why I wondered about the meticulous exception of the Dragonspine – that’s a level of detail I didn’t expect to see right next to other, larger areas effectively unpopulated by human Orlanthi that reasonably weren’t excluded.

    To hazard a guess, the map maker had a layer available that excluded these steep mountains, and used that to delineate some natural borders outside of Orlanthi influence – an absolutely valid procedure. I mentioned intersection with a human population density map (which would be a useful thematic map, as far as I am concerned) as a GIS method to automatize such area generating processes.

    (And we do have quite a lot of data to calculate such densities – like total population numbers for political areas, relief and forestation data, settlement pattern information, agricultural specialisations, transhumance information, etc.)

    In the case of nomadic cultures, such maps show something else than with sedentary cultures. I hazard it will be impossible to make a Doraddi clan territory map that is valid for more than a couple of weeks, except for the oasis dwellers. On the other hand, getting the migration pattern maps of a couple of Praxian clans from various tribes might add to a Praxian nomad game. Such time dependant maps are hard for print editions (unless you provide map series), but work fine with interactive maps.

    Quote:
    We know there are Western Influences in Fonrit, Esrolia, even Pavis, but they are insignificant on maps of this scale.

    On Teleos you could say that each of the trade post dominated by the Kareeshatans, Haragalans etc should be highlighted but they are not. They could have been but my god would these maps be cluttered!

    Yes. Again, with a GIS connecting such topographical data with e.g. population number breakdowns like those available in the Guide, defining a criterion which areas to display and which to ignore is a simple matter of filtering, once the initial data has been processed.

    Sometimes, having such detail could be quite useful. In one of the Gencon seminars, Jeff mentioned an explicit absence of Vadeli from the Holy Country. That would require me to redefine a certain compound of unpleasant seafarers in my scenario ideas in and around Karse to something else. (I guess I can make them Kareeshtan sorcerers without having to worry about their impact on the story.) Having it on a world-wide map is impossible. Having such detail appear when you zoom in to a map is nifty, but takes quite a bit of preparation (data analysis, and programming the layers).

    Quote:
    What was interesting is that the previous incarnation of these maps had each culture and influence in on colour and used hatching. This was hard to read, but meant that I could do a map that overlaid ALL of the cultures on to one map in a glorious mess and you really got a suprise as to the cultures and what was going on in Glorantha.

    Exactly – combining topological information, overlaying or intersecting different themes – those things make mapped data so insightful.

    Quote:
    Joerg if you want to commission me to do a map showing every human cultural influence in the backwoods of beyond I could do it, for the right money!

    Simon, what I really want is a tool that will allow me to generate thematic maps like e.g. distribution of Western Script/language, or Malkioni-approvable Caste systems, or veneration of the Invisible God, as separate maps, and also getting these maps with a time stamp like those rather beautiful renditions of the 50 year step pencil maps Greg produced (and included as photocopies in the earliest edition of the Dara Happan Book of Emperors) which Jeff presented 2 years ago as the historical maps.

    More often than not, all we have is some point information (like military leader x conquered city y in year z) that still allows us to extrapolate the resulting influence, e.g. by tesselation algorithms or using natural borders as limiters for such algorithms. You’d be surprised how much spatial analysis can do to create map depictions that come close to the (in this case fictional) reality you want to map.

    Maps like a distribution of personal weapons, as can be inferred from ethnic, cultic and resource availability, might give insights to what you will be facing as armed opposition in a wargaming or simulationist style rpg setting. You can always wing it, sure – but my point is with all the information available, you don’t have to make it up. The data is there. Wearing a sword on your belt might give you an unexpected status in certain areas, and some unexpected obligations in others. Just looking at thematic maps dealing with such aspects may give you trade routes, areas of banditry etc.

    In an interactive map e.g. of bronze deposits, a mouse-over for a certain known deposit/collection area might yield additional information like that this material is better suited for armor or shields than blades because of the origin of that material in some mythical battle.

    These aren’t essential map ideas. For me, getting or producing such map representations is a way to trigger trivial as well as mythically significant connections that may lead to a satisfying Gloranthan experience, whether through gaming or through some other creative outlet.

    Your means for exploring Glorantha (or other fictional settings) will vary. Combining yours, or e.g. David Scott’s decidedly different approach (from mine), with mine, will enrich at least my experience, but hopefully other people’s experience as well.

    #6192
    Profile photo of jean
    jean
    Spectator

    In my opinion there should be some malkioni influence near the Felster lake.
    After all, it is there that the galvosti an borist heresies began.

    During the second age, Ralios was a part of the middle sea empire for centuries. Some influence should remain.

    I agree they are not dominant, but they are important enough to be part of the political/religious/magical landscape. (a thin light green line along the lake’s shore)

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