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  • #5236
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    The Guide to Glorantha features cultural distribution maps for each of the eight major human cultures and three of the Elder Races. Some of these maps may prove a bit surprising. For example, those who thought that Kingdom of Sartar is the end-all and be-all of Orlanthi culture might get a shock…

    #6019
    Profile photo of Vaughan Cockell
    Vaughan Cockell
    Spectator

    2 things I found interesting about those maps – The main Orlanthi distribution hugs the western supermountain range. I know Kero Fin is at the southernmost end of that range, but how many other Holy Mountains are contained in it?

    The other was from the western culture map – I wonder what it would have looked like before the God Learners were “bitch-slapped” out of existence?

    Really looking forward to the finished article by the way, are you guys still on track for distribution by Christmas?

    #6020

    Nice maps, though there are some details that don’t quite fit. All of Arstola Forest is Orlanthi culture, but the Wind Children of the Skyreach Mountains aren’t? Or God Forgot is free of Western influences, while Heortland isn’t?

    That’s where having the data in a GIS would become useful – if you had a basic map showing human (and other racial) population density, that could have been intersected with the cultural prevalence map. That would have taken the non-human portions of Arstola or the broo-, telmori- and elf-only inhabited portions of Dorastor off that map just like the impassable mountain chains were.

    Intersecting the Ralios maps of Western influence and Orlanthi influence yields two areas (on the upper Tanier and around Borin) that are only Orlanthi influence and not western influence. I sort of doubt that there is any Galanini/Enerali derived non-Orlanthi culture dominating there, so is this merely the absence of other Arkati sects (excluding the Church of Otkorion)?

    I take it that only the Loskalmi Irensavalists and the orthodox Rokari regions get the “Western Culture” label – what’s the criterion? Adherence to a form of the caste system? None of the interesting forms like the Ralian or Manirian heresies seem to qualify. The upper Janube valley is considered emptied òf Western influence by the ravages of the Kingdom of War?

    I suppose the criterion “Western culture” or “Western influence” is a lot narrower than “Orlanthi culture” or “Orlanthi influence”.

    It might be said that the Sartarite and Volsaxi are to Orlanthi culture what the Taliban are to Islam – a radical group within a larger and variated culture, with secular groups as well as groups pursuing some other religious fanatism. At least the half of the Sartarites described in the Barbarian Adventures campaign, the non-compromising rebels.

    Another useful depiction would have been the regions where the Orlanthi actually rule, and where they are subject to rulers of a different culture (such as Umathela’s elves or Grazer horsefolk). Leaving aside the tricky definitions for Tarsh, Sylila or Jonatela where the ruling elite has removed themselves from the Orlanthi culture in favour of something else, or the Holy Country under the restrictions imposed by Belintar.

    #6024
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Joerg –

    If you look more carefully you will notice that the mountain tops throughout the Rockwoods are not colored. Two things going on there:
    (1) The Orlanthi are a human culture and the Wind Children are an Elder Race (they may be closely affiliated with the Orlanthi but they are not human).
    (2) Humans don’t live on mountain tops.

    Humans in the Arstola forest (of which there have been plenty) are going to be Orlanthi.

    God Forgot is Western, but I appear to have posted a version that didn’t have that marked. Will post the correct version when I get home.

    #6025
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    Quote from Vaughan Cockell on October 10, 2013, 12:13
    2 things I found interesting about those maps – The main Orlanthi distribution hugs the western supermountain range. I know Kero Fin is at the southernmost end of that range, but how many other Holy Mountains are contained in it?

    The other was from the western culture map – I wonder what it would have looked like before the God Learners were “bitch-slapped” out of existence?

    Really looking forward to the finished article by the way, are you guys still on track for distribution by Christmas?

    We should still be on track for Christmas. We are currently laying out two of the three most complicated pieces in the book. After that it should get a lot easier and faster.

    The Skyreach Mountains has several major Holy Mountains (Arrowmound and Doktados), as does the western Mislari Mountain range (Selon Mountain). There is a smaller peak in the central Misarli range (Ramor). And the Ditali and Solanthi are largely within the ambit of Kero Fin.

    #6026
    Profile photo of David Scott
    David Scott
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    That’s where having the data in a GIS would become useful

    Having looked into it, that’s a lot of work, just for the map, and that’s before any other data is added. I’m not even sure it would be worth it.

    #6027
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    Quote from Joerg Baumgartner on October 10, 2013, 12:23
    Intersecting the Ralios maps of Western influence and Orlanthi influence yields two areas (on the upper Tanier and around Borin) that are only Orlanthi influence and not western influence. I sort of doubt that there is any Galanini/Enerali derived non-Orlanthi culture dominating there, so is this merely the absence of other Arkati sects (excluding the Church of Otkorion)?
    I take it that only the Loskalmi Irensavalists and the orthodox Rokari regions get the “Western Culture” label – what’s the criterion? Adherence to a form of the caste system? None of the interesting forms like the Ralian or Manirian heresies seem to qualify. The upper Janube valley is considered emptied òf Western influence by the ravages of the Kingdom of War?

    I suppose the criterion “Western culture” or “Western influence” is a lot narrower than “Orlanthi culture” or “Orlanthi influence”.

    Tinaros is neither Orlanthi nor Western and is its own weird thing – basically part of Safelster without much Western influence and not Orlanthi (but heavily influenced by them, like all of Safelster).

    To be Western influenced you need to have:
    (1) Some form of the Malkioni caste structure. That’s pretty much the sine qua non for other Malkioni to even consider you to be a heresy.
    (2) Acknowledgement of the Invisible God (in some form) as the Supreme God or Creator.
    (3) Use a Western language or at least Western script.

    So Carmania is Western influenced (and has all three requirements in some form). So are the Esvularings, the Ramalians, and the New Coast cities. But they are too divergent from Western culture to be considered anything but Western Influenced.

    Tinaros, the Janube River city states, and the Trader Princes have at best two of the three requirements and can’t even be considered Western influenced. They lack castes, worship pantheons of gods, ignore the Invisible God, or don’t use Western script.

    #6031
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator

    What would be interesting would be a comparison of culture v. pantheon – maybe in the future Gods book? For example, the Storm Pantheon expands into places far removed from classic Orlanthi culture, such as Pent.

    #6032
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Heck, Orlanth (by another name and very different cult practices) is an important god in Fonrit, and both a god and an anti-god in Kralorela. He’s well known to the Westerners as well.

    Same thing with Yelm. He’s known to the Orlanthi, the Pentans, and the Westerners. The Teshnos identify him with Somash but the Kralorelans associate him with two prehistoric Emperors (HeenMaroun and Vashanti). The Fonritians also associate him with two different gods.

    #6034
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator

    Hi Jeff,

    Quote:
    Heck, Orlanth (by another name and very different cult practices) is an important god in Fonrit, and both a god and an anti-god in Kralorela. He’s well known to the Westerners as well.

    Same thing with Yelm. He’s known to the Orlanthi, the Pentans, and the Westerners. The Teshnos identify him with Somash but the Kralorelans associate him with two prehistoric Emperors (HeenMaroun and Vashanti). The Fonritians also associate him with two different gods.

    Both sound like excellent candidates for future maps, though perhaps only showing where they form some part of the religious ‘geography’? And perhaps showing their variant names.

    Given that there are fewer gods in Glorantha than first appears, such a treatment for the major deities would be… illuminating.

    #6035
    Profile photo of Mark Mohrfield
    Mark Mohrfield
    Spectator

    What about Jrustela? Are the human settlements just too small to show up here?

    #6037
    Quote:
    Quote from David Scott on October 10, 2013, 13:22

    Quote:
    That’s where having the data in a GIS would become useful

    Having looked into it, that’s a lot of work, just for the map, and that’s before any other data is added. I’m not even sure it would be worth it.

    Adding the map is no great technical problem, what I have seen from Colin’s Data. The only “georeferencing” that has to be done is to define absolute coordinates and the fact that there is no projection of the pixels to some spheroid.

    Getting vector data out of the raster map is some work. With the existing maps, much of the topographic research has been done, though. Some of the vectorizing can be done using GIS analysis tools.

    The demand for facts shown on maps makes such a project worth it, IMO. The project mustn’t be added to the work load of the current team, though.

    #6038
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    Quote from Mark Mohrfield on October 10, 2013, 21:52
    What about Jrustela? Are the human settlements just too small to show up here?

    Yes. The human population of Jrustela is so tiny – and so new – that I really didn’t think it was worthwhile. Same thing with the various colonies on Teleos, or the Theyalan colony on Melib.

    #6040
    Quote:
    Quote from Jeff Richard on October 10, 2013, 13:14
    Joerg –

    If you look more carefully you will notice that the mountain tops throughout the Rockwoods are not colored.

    I noticed – that’s why I wondered about the inclusion of regions mostly uninhabited by humans, such as the heart of Arstola Forest, the western half of Dorastor (there are more humans on Jrustela than in Dorastor, unless you count the Grayskins of the Mad Sultan, and those definitely aren’t Orlanthi), or basically uninhabited portions of Ralios (Karia, Wonderwood).

    Don’t take me wrong – the maps are great. I am just a little puzzled why you took such pains to except some regions like the Dragonspine while leaving other regions such as the heart of Arstola Forest or western Dorastor in.

    Quote:
    Two things going on there:
    (1) The Orlanthi are a human culture and the Wind Children are an Elder Race (they may be closely affiliated with the Orlanthi but they are not human).

    I guess that takes care of any Kitori on or below the Shadow Plateau, too?

    Quote:
    (2) Humans don’t live on mountain tops.

    Sone of the Skyreach tops used to be settled and even fortified by a pastoral splinter group of the Jorganostelli, but those places might not exactly have been in the Middle World any more (similar to the Karandoli hide-out on the slopes of Mt Quivin hinted at in King of Sartar).

    If you look at the Alps, you will find signs of Neolithic and Bronze Age human occupation almost anywhere you could find a horizontal place sufficient for a human to sleep on. The Storm(walk) and Quivin Mountains apparently are treated the same way, the Dragonspine and the Rockwoods aren’t. Exclusion of the Mislari is justifiable because neither slopes have any population density greater than Genert’s Waste – to the south there is the elf-only territory of Arstola Forest, and the Ralians seem to shun all of the mountain ranges surrounding their basin. On the Pelorian side of the Rockwoods I suppose it is the presence of Halikiv trolls that makes high mountain pasture a profitless endeavour.

    Quote:
    Humans in the Arstola forest (of which there have been plenty) are going to be Orlanthi.

    I doubt that Orlanthi penetration into this elf forest is anywhere as deep as in Umathela. Stronger along the rivers, but I would expect heavy handed elf reactions to any squatters or woodcutters beyond a certain latitude.

    #6045
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Joerg – those are aesthetic choices we made to make the map easier to read and to convey the information we wanted it to. If you want to nit-pick those choices, you are welcome to, but I am not terrible interested in debating them.

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