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  • #5447
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator

    The mysteries of this event clearly are not limited to the year(s) in which it took place. (Trick question: 1245, 1246 and 1247 are all correct.)

    Fortunate Succession tells the Lunar side of it. “Orlanth and the Red Goddess” from King of Sartar (reprinted almost verbatim in BOHM as “Orlanth and Red Shepelkirt”) tells what the Heortlings know. Presumably somewhere in between is what the Blue People remember.

    I always liked this story for its hieratic Mabinogionesque dream logic even though I had forgotten it until today. A mistake was made. Two queens argued. A grudge. Vows, inexplicable wonders and signs. It is only at this point that Orlanth arrives in any version of the story we have.

    Now Orlanth enters the story as an on-screen presence through someone the Heortling story identifies as “Alakoring,” who had of course died three centuries previous. An enigma right there.

    The Dragonkill forcibly isolated “our” beloved Heortland Orlanthi from what their northern cousins were doing, barring the occasional flyover exchange on holidays of course. “Orlanth” evolved separately on both sides of the kill, as well as in Ralios. Castle Blue does not appear in History of the Heortling Peoples. “Our” Orlanthi weren’t there.

    By the 1240s, the religion “Alakoring” followed may not even have resembled “our” Orlanth terribly closely. But those are the Orlanthi who fought and lost and have been pushed southward (and elsewhere?) out of the moon’s shadow ever since. These are the people who evolved an antipathy with the Lunar Way.

    At the beginning, “Alakoring” fights because he some vague bond with the Castle Blue water peoples. Maybe he wanted to repay the queen’s hospitality by defending her honor. Mythic antipathy finds its way into the narrative at other points, but not this one.

    In the Fortunate Succession side of the story, Orlanth fought as a foreigner. The BOHM/KOS version confirms that he had to travel to get to Castle Blue and adds the mysterious note that when he arrived, it was from the north. Did the Bull Shah Carmanians have stormy friends on that side?

    “Elmal” leads the “others” against the Red Goddess on the “dangerous” side. Who are these people?

    “Stone men” come up in both versions of the story. The Orlanthi maintain they were allies of the Goddess. The Pelorian version does not say, but in context they seem to be a mostali presence. Unlikely, but did dwarves help build the moon?

    Karsten Fandrosson tried to run a Lightbringer Quest “near to Castle Blue” and failed spectacularly, with stars falling from the sky on Brolia and Worion. Northern Orlanthi territories, once allies of the Bull Shahs and now humbled. The Bull Shahs originally came from Worion, don’t they?

    Was Fandrosson’s quest in conjunction with the Castle Blue dispute, and if so, did at least one of the stars he knocked out fall from Orlanth’s Ring?

    Finally, the southern Orlanthi version of the story identifies the red moon with chaos, as we all know. The motivations attributed to (northern) Orlanth in FS are, as Mr Metcalfe noted decades ago, to avert ethical “evil.” Fighting “chaos” is the mandate of the people of Charg.

    Is there a northern Storm Bull alongside HUMKT and Worlath? What was his relationship with the Bull Shahs who were part of the Carmanian complex in the 1240s? Did he come from Charg?

    Was this part of the Eternal Battle?

    Why does Arkat never get around to collecting the anti-chaos powers of the Bull, but instead initiated to Humakt instead?

    #8069
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Scott Martin on May 31, 2014, 21:39
    The mysteries of this event clearly are not limited to the year(s) in which it took place. (Trick question: 1245, 1246 and 1247 are all correct.)

    Fortunate Succession tells the Lunar side of it. “Orlanth and the Red Goddess” from King of Sartar (reprinted almost verbatim in BOHM as “Orlanth and Red Shepelkirt”) tells what the Heortlings know. Presumably somewhere in between is what the Blue People remember.

    I always liked this story for its hieratic Mabinogionesque dream logic even though I had forgotten it until today. A mistake was made. Two queens argued. A grudge. Vows, inexplicable wonders and signs. It is only at this point that Orlanth arrives in any version of the story we have.

    Now Orlanth enters the story as an on-screen presence through someone the Heortling story identifies as “Alakoring,” who had of course died three centuries previous. An enigma right there.

    Actually, if you think about how common the name Artur was for centuries in England during the dark ages it isn’t such an enigma. Alakoring had been a famous Orlanthi. Many children would have been named after him. Just like centuries later we still name people Arthur.

    Quote:
    The Dragonkill forcibly isolated “our” beloved Heortland Orlanthi from what their northern cousins were doing, barring the occasional flyover exchange on holidays of course. “Orlanth” evolved separately on both sides of the kill, as well as in Ralios. Castle Blue does not appear in History of the Heortling Peoples. “Our” Orlanthi weren’t there.

    By the 1240s, the religion “Alakoring” followed may not even have resembled “our” Orlanth terribly closely. But those are the Orlanthi who fought and lost and have been pushed southward (and elsewhere?) out of the moon’s shadow ever since. These are the people who evolved an antipathy with the Lunar Way.

    At the beginning, “Alakoring” fights because he some vague bond with the Castle Blue water peoples. Maybe he wanted to repay the queen’s hospitality by defending her honor. Mythic antipathy finds its way into the narrative at other points, but not this one.

    In the Fortunate Succession side of the story, Orlanth fought as a foreigner. The BOHM/KOS version confirms that he had to travel to get to Castle Blue and adds the mysterious note that when he arrived, it was from the north. Did the Bull Shah Carmanians have stormy friends on that side?

    “Elmal” leads the “others” against the Red Goddess on the “dangerous” side. Who are these people?

    Both very interesting points. Chaos always comes from the north and so did Orlanth. The Elmal/Yelmalio link (my god learner side, excuse me) makes me think “Elmal” and the “others” from the “dangerous” side might have been sun worshipping Pentans. Pent has always been the dangerous side.

    Quote:
    “Stone men” come up in both versions of the story. The Orlanthi maintain they were allies of the Goddess. The Pelorian version does not say, but in context they seem to be a mostali presence. Unlikely, but did dwarves help build the moon?

    The dwarves consider the building of the Red Moon as a major accomplishment towards the repair of the World Machine. Not sure what’s so unlikely about this idea.

    Quote:
    Karsten Fandrosson tried to run a Lightbringer Quest “near to Castle Blue” and failed spectacularly, with stars falling from the sky on Brolia and Worion. Northern Orlanthi territories, once allies of the Bull Shahs and now humbled. The Bull Shahs originally came from Worion, don’t they?

    Was Fandrosson’s quest in conjunction with the Castle Blue dispute, and if so, did at least one of the stars he knocked out fall from Orlanth’s Ring?

    Finally, the southern Orlanthi version of the story identifies the red moon with chaos, as we all know. The motivations attributed to (northern) Orlanth in FS are, as Mr Metcalfe noted decades ago, to avert ethical “evil.” Fighting “chaos” is the mandate of the people of Charg.

    Is there a northern Storm Bull alongside HUMKT and Worlath? What was his relationship with the Bull Shahs who were part of the Carmanian complex in the 1240s? Did he come from Charg?

    Was this part of the Eternal Battle?

    Why does Arkat never get around to collecting the anti-chaos powers of the Bull, but instead initiated to Humakt instead?

    All good questions. That last part about Arkat makes one wonder who truly was Gbaji?

    #8070

    The dwarves talk about the red orbiter and claim that it hasn’t stopped moving yet. Doesn’t this sound that they, too, desire the moon to fall fromthe sky again?

    #8071
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Why does Arkat never get around to collecting the anti-chaos powers of the Bull, but instead initiated to Humakt instead?

    Because he had already been Illuminated?

    #8073
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Now Orlanth enters the story as an on-screen presence through someone the Heortling story identifies as “Alakoring,” who had of course died three centuries previous. An enigma right there.

    I thought the Alakoring in the myth was the actual Alakoring the Hero and that he was repeating the heroic events he had done during his lifetime. That is why he is so surprised when he kills the proto-Red Emperor and finds he has free will in defiance of the Compromise.

    Quote:
    “Orlanth” evolved separately on both sides of the kill, as well as in Ralios.

    I don’t see much evidence for this. There would be a far stronger variation depending on what mountains they use for worship (Top of the World or Kero Fin).

    Quote:
    In the Fortunate Succession side of the story, Orlanth fought as a foreigner.

    That’s not what the text says.

    Quote:
    ]Even foreigners found excuses to become engaged. The barbarian Orlanthi claimed that the Goddess was evil, the Warlord of Charg said it was his duty to fight chaos, and even the blue men worshipping YarGan the Abominable came up from underneath the Sweet Sea to fight.

    Nothing about Orlanth fighting as a foreigner. The barbarian Orlanthi (Brolia?) get involved in the conflict because the Goddess was evil. They are distinguished from the people (Warlord) of Charg who evinces anti-chaotic motivations. And if those two are foreigners, then it’s a bit odd that the Blue People of the Sweet Sea are so described.

    Quote:
    The BOHM/KOS version confirms that he had to travel to get to Castle Blue and adds the mysterious note that when he arrived, it was from the north. Did the Bull Shah Carmanians have stormy friends on that side?

    The advance of the army from the north is after two contests have already been carried out. I’m leery of assigning a geographical location for his followers based on that. As for the Bull Shahs, the line had been extinguished a few years before.

    Quote:
    Unlikely, but did dwarves help build the moon?

    The Silver Dwarves claim to have done so and the rise of the Red Moon was seen as a sign of Dwarvern Unity that brought an end to the war between Nida and Greatway.

    Quote:
    The Bull Shahs originally came from Worion, don’t they?

    The first Bull Shah came from Vanstal – Bisosae rather than Orlanthi.

    #8074
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Peter Metcalfe on June 2, 2014, 23:39

    [many good things and some worth a quibble down the road but…]

    Quote:
    Even foreigners found excuses to become engaged. The barbarian Orlanthi claimed that the Goddess was evil, the Warlord of Charg said it was his duty to fight chaos, and even the blue men worshipping YarGan the Abominable came up from underneath the Sweet Sea to fight.
    Quote:
    Quote from Peter Metcalfe on June 2, 2014, 23:39
    Nothing about Orlanth fighting as a foreigner. The barbarian Orlanthi (Brolia?) get involved in the conflict because the Goddess was evil. They are distinguished from the people (Warlord) of Charg who evinces anti-chaotic motivations. And if those two are foreigners, then it’s a bit odd that the Blue People of the Sweet Sea are so described.

    I surrender to your close reading: Who are the foreigners in that paragraph then, and if none of the listed groups are the foreigners, which foreigners got engaged? What is the most natural way to construct a text: to mention a class of combatants and then immediately list several groups who explicitly don’t belong to that class, or to mention the class and then list examples? If the former applies here, why is this particular text so obscure? What is it hiding?

    Or maybe where I am wrong is in Orlanth versus Orlanthi. Do gods perhaps not travel with their worshippers within Time?

    And I would think that the “even” intensifying the blue man group’s involvement refers to the surprise of direct contact between the Oronin and Sweet Sea cultures at that point in history — no matter how closely related they may have been once, I count about 30 hexes of high country portage there as qualifying them as a “foreign” tribe of combatants. Or they could go around to the Poralister, I guess, but that’s much longer haul.

    [love the silver dwarves]

    #8075
    Profile photo of Harald Smith
    Harald Smith
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Now Orlanth enters the story as an on-screen presence through someone the Heortling story identifies as “Alakoring,” who had of course died three centuries previous. An enigma right there.
    Quote:
    I thought the Alakoring in the myth was the actual Alakoring the Hero

    While Alakoring was ‘killed’ by the elf archer, he was already a hero and dwelling at that point in Orlanth’s hall. Doesn’t preclude, I suppose, that an Orlanthi clansman was emulating or invoking Alakoring the hero.

    #8078
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator

    Love all of this — expansive stuff that I want to come back to after I vent my endless spleen. Sorry to be so persistent on the foreigners but every word in these stories matters to me because it contains information we can use. Every time we are forced to say “Oh, that’s just Greg being dumb” and don’t come up with an MGF explanation a Gold Wheel Dancer stops spinning and turns back into a coin. Sad face.

    So a very simple semantic proof came to me. Take the evil word and replace it:

    Even THE NATIONS OF TELEOS found excuses to become engaged. The barbarian Orlanthi claimed that the Goddess was evil, the Warlord of Charg said it was his duty to fight chaos, and even the blue men worshipping YarGan the Abominable came up from underneath the Sweet Sea to fight.

    Now I may be wrong but I suspect the typical crazed fan English speaker looks at that passage and says “no way in the belling hell are these nations of Teleos” or maybe the especially crazed one says “how interesting, I guess the blue people make sense but I had no idea them in Charg were maybe bright purple.”

    So the simplest way to read the unmodified text is that the people listed are among the “foreigners” fighting at Castle Blue. If those foreigners were not the Orlanthi in particular — as first in the list — and also not the Warlord’s people and also not the blue folk from the Sweet Sea, then why is the word even there? It’s easier to just say “PEOPLE” found excuses. You have to go out of your way to tell us there were foreigners, people who traveled from far away and carried their gods with them.

    Now I am harping on this because I want to know who those foreigners were, from a Fortunate Succession POV. I’m happy to hear that Greg said somewhere that he was thinking of Men-and-a-Half (*), the people of Bija and my aunt Dorothy. If it should happen that the best answer we have is that the foreigners were the Orlanthi, the Chargites and the Sweet Sea people, then that will have implications elsewhere on the web of Arachne Solara. That’s okay. Truth rune burns bright and at least in D&D spider silk is far from immune.

    (*) This bit is actually not 100% facetious given army of fire showing up to fight at Sacred Time.

    #8080
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator
    Quote:
    While Alakoring was ‘killed’ by the elf archer, he was already a hero and dwelling at that point in Orlanth’s hall. Doesn’t preclude, I suppose, that an Orlanthi clansman was emulating or invoking Alakoring the hero

    No, I do not mean that an Orlanthi was emulating Alakoring while visiting Castle Blue. I mean that Alakoring himself was visiting Castle Blue. He visited it at one point while a live and because of his heroic nature he is always visiting Castle Blue just as he is always in Orlanth’s Hall. In short he has become part of the mythic landscape.

    If it were just simply an emulator then the killing of the scarlet warlord and the realization that the Compromise had been broken makes no sense because that is what any living hero could (unremarkably) do.

    #8081
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Who are the foreigners in that paragraph then, and if none of the listed groups are the foreigners, which foreigners got engaged? What is the most natural way to construct a text: to mention a class of combatants and then immediately list several groups who explicitly don’t belong to that class, or to mention the class and then list examples? If the former applies here, why is this particular text so obscure? What is it hiding?

    I have not said the Orlanthi are not the foreigners. I simply refuted your assertion that Orlanth (the God, not his people) “fought as a foreigner” which is something markedly different.

    #8082
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator

    Excellent. Thanks. Since his own myth repeatedly emphasizes that he himself “went” to attend various events and then famously performed a triple spiral trajectory before landing, I have no idea why I didn’t assume he was always already on site, no traveling involved.

    But your painstaking distinction between Orlanth and Orlanthi is interesting within time. We know from the ancient Divination guidelines that there are spots on Glorantha where some gods know nothing, notably the lands and sacred places of foreign peoples who worship strange gods. The god and the people often but not always travel together.

    So if Castle Blue is not foreign to Orlanth and his people are foreign to it, presumably he has some special relationship with the site — located in the lake and so not normally his territory — if not its people.

    So as always, I surrender. What is that relationship? Are other gods native as well? All the “Old Gods?”

    Since they’re natives, can they see in there now and tell me what’s going on in there, or are they foreigners “now?” I would hope their relationship with the place doesn’t change within time!

    #8084
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator
    Quote:
    But your painstaking distinction between Orlanth and Orlanthi is interesting within time. We know from the ancient Divination guidelines that there are spots on Glorantha where some gods know nothing, notably the lands and sacred places of foreign peoples who worship strange gods. So if Castle Blue is not foreign to Orlanth and his people are foreign to it, presumably he has some special relationship with the site if not its people.

    The ancient divination guidelines referred to holy places to another god, not foreign lands in general. Orlanth could answer about what is visible from the air in Dorastor or Zamokil but he could not answer what happened within the Temple of the Reaching Moon.

    As for Castle Blue, the people who label the Orlanthi and other people “foreigners” are the Lunars and they are referring to people who did not come from Castle Blue and Lake Oronin. I strongly doubt that the people of Castle Blue considered the Blue People of the Sweet Sea to be foreigners. The Fortunate Succession does not make a statement about the relationship of Castle Blue with any Gods (other than the three worshipped), let alone whether they are foreign gods or native.

    As for the Old Gods, your focus on Orlanth ignores other great gods who are prominent in Peloria – for example, what did Yelm think of the whole affair?

    #8086
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Peter Metcalfe on June 3, 2014, 04:18
    As for Castle Blue, the people who label the Orlanthi and other people “foreigners” are the Lunars and they are referring to people who did not come from Castle Blue and Lake Oronin. I strongly doubt that the people of Castle Blue considered the Blue People of the Sweet Sea to be foreigners.

    That last bit asked and answered, actually. Looks like a surprisingly long way from sea to sea even if you take the equivalent of shell horses on the river route. But if you would rather minimize the ranks of mortal “foreigners” who showed up, we can go back to “nations of Teleos.”

    As for the Lunars misinterpreting events, that actually opens up an even more interesting angle. I thought their goddess was a central combatant in this so I was treating their account with the same mythic kid gloves as the Orlanth story and the unattributed Wane History. But it’s just a story from time and can be wrong. Still, while it may be wrong in some respects (despite Divination), the specific way it is wrong (despite Divination) is revealing.

    Quote:
    The Fortunate Succession does not make a statement about the relationship of Castle Blue with any Gods (other than the three worshipped), let alone whether they are foreign gods or native.

    Luckily “Orlanth and Red Shepelkirt” describes his travels — sometimes alone, true, but at the end accompanied with his mortals — to get there. Or is this version mistaken or metaphorical and he was always already at Castle Blue? Either way, this story dates from no earlier than the 1240s. It’s not a myth from ancient pre-times. Maybe it’s divined revelation and so is subject to those guidelines. It does not appear in the History of the Heortling Peoples because those particular tribes would have had to cross the kill lines or fly en masse (perhaps with the god in that triple spiral) to get there. I am lingering on these points of provenance to forestall arguments to “mythology is set in the template of Glorantha thus infallible.” This is a story of historical times, like the Fortunate Succession is a document compiled by humans during time.

    Either way, the mysterious Wane History is silent except for the ambiguous notion that the Old Gods “entered into” the fight, perhaps figurative language. So let’s surrender this point and say they were always already there and the Orlanthi version lapses into metaphorical terms for drama or some esoteric purpose. The follow-up question of course is obvious: why the song and dance concealed as him traveling?

    Orlanth was always already at Castle Blue. He’s no foreigner. OK. Uncle. He went out to get his people from foreign lands and he came back. So what’s so special about Castle Blue that he’s home there among the Carmanian ancestor deities so far from his normal mountains, and who else has a lake house there — a lake house that, just for the record, the texts we have don’t mention but we’re taking it on faith?

    Quote:
    As for the Old Gods, your focus on Orlanth ignores other great gods who are prominent in Peloria – for example, what did Yelm think of the whole affair?

    Sorry to disappoint you but since this spun out of the question of whether Castle Blue was necessarily a binary Orlanth/Goddess dispute with other players on the fringes or else a more multi-polar conflict, trying to nail down Orlanth’s role came first.

    But it’s a damn good question. Interesting point: according to the Lunar version, Yelmgatha stayed home because Moonson, uh, “went” [presumably esoteric allegory] to him afterward and introduced himself. But he sent a son who was killed “to support the claims of the Red Goddess.” To the extent to which Yelmgatha was the prophet and emperor, that’s what Yelm thought of the whole affair. Vinyargatha [funny word] emerges too late to pose an independent solar challenge at Castle Blue.

    What other Old Gods were present? There must have been lots because the texts agree that there were “many” gods and “many” peoples and presumably this sort of ritual would require a cosmic plenum of sorts in order to be truly binding. Unfortunately that FS account has the best list, whether prevaricated or not, so let’s start there. Aldrya(mi) showed up, I want to say in another of those awful premonitions of Rist. There were stone and metal men, possibly Silver Caste working hard behind the scenes or just there to thwart Aldrya. None of these kowtow at the end. The fire men are mysterious, although it would be nice for Pamalt to find his way here. (Surely Pamalt is a “native” to Castle Blue?)

    Elmal appears to lead the “others” in the Orlanth story. Another native of the Pelorian bowl, sure. If we dig below the surface, this may be a non-Yelmic sky cult relatively unknown to us or one of the likely suspects. Also the gods of Carmania were present (FS) and surely had at least as large a vested interest in this as that storm god with the lake house!

    If not for the mandate to observe eternal Orlanth/Goddess antagonism I would actually think the Carmanian pantheon — archetypal “natives” — were the key “Old Gods” here and that Orlanth’s people, strangers in that land a nation of Teleos, eventually got a garbled version. I would suspect that this part of the Wane History was compiled from Carmanian sources, who dare not speak the names of the vanquished. I would note that until things escalated and uh “foreigners” found “excuses” to get involved, it was a struggle between the lake gods and the red queen and the Wane History preserves a Carmanian spin on the struggle.

    Many of these gods are lost to history. Others survive, probably among those who “swore allegiance.” Some may have been further rehabilitated by Lunar heroquesters as the Pelandan goddesses were integrated — more or less fitfully — into lunar religion. We could look for some of them in the obscure places on the Wall. Losers rarely get more than a footnote in the Prosopaedia.

    Now here’s where “it all comes together at Castle Blue.” If Orlanth is a native, then he figures somehow into the Carmanian pantheon. Ditto Storm Bull or whatever chaos-hating cult the Warlord worshipped over in Charg. (Or is the god of Charg a foreign god?) Do we want this? Fine with me. But that takes us back to why they had to go fetch worshippers from elsewhere. No local followers on call?

    #8087
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator
    Quote:
    That last bit asked and answered, actually. Looks like a surprisingly long way from sea to sea even if you take the equivalent of shell horses on the river route. But if you would rather minimize the ranks of mortal “foreigners” who showed up, we can go back to “nations of Teleos.”

    There is more to being a foreigner than distance. The Blue People of the Sweet Sea and the People of Castle Blue are closely related peoples and neither would consider each other foreigners anymore than the Sartarites would consider the People of New Pavis to be.

    Quote:
    As for the Lunars misinterpreting events

    I am not saying the Lunars misinterpreted events. From _their_ point of view, the listed peoples (Barbarian Orlanth, Charg, Sweet Sea Blue People) *are* foreigners. I simply pointed out that People of Castle Blue would not see things that way and gave the Sweet Sea People as an example. Therefore musing on Orlanth being a foreigner is misplaced.

    Quote:
    Luckily “Orlanth and Red Shepelkirt” describes his travels — sometimes alone, true, but at the end accompanied with his mortals — to get there.

    What travels are you talking about? I do not see any reference to Orlanth travelling to Castle Blue.

    Quote:
    Orlanth was always already at Castle Blue. He’s no foreigner. OK. Uncle. He went out to get his people from foreign lands and he came back.

    Once again, I don’t see any reference to Orlanth getting his people from foreign lands. Your position (and also interpretations of my position) seems to rest on unspoken assumptions that you take for granted but are a mystery to me. It would help immensely if you spelled out what you are thinking.

    If it is your position (I’m taking a stab in the dark here) that the tripartite army led by Orlanth, Elmal and Vyran in Orlanth and Red Shepelkirt is actually a mortal army assembled from Brolians, Blue People and what-have-you, then I disagree. I see it as an army of the Storm Tribe and the battle takes place wholly within the Gods World. Who’s right? I really don’t know. It depends on how far the Great Compromise broke down and that’s something we haven’t been told.

    Quote:
    So what’s so special about Castle Blue that he’s home there among the Carmanian ancestor deities so far from his normal mountains, and who else has a lake house there — a lake house that, just for the record, the texts we have don’t mention but we’re taking it on faith?

    Orlanth is not home there among the Carmanian ancestor deities – Alakoring is. We don’t know why Alakoring ever came to be at Castle Blue – my guess that it was the result of a HeroQuest that he performed while he was alive is merely a safe guess.

    Orlanth becomes involved not because he is a foreign god or that he is not a foreign god but because the Great Compromise has been broken and that is something he has sworn to uphold.

    Quote:
    Sorry to disappoint you but since this spun out of the question of whether Castle Blue was necessarily a binary Orlanth/Goddess dispute with other players on the fringes or else a more multi-polar conflict, trying to nail down Orlanth’s role came first.

    Castle Blue has not said to be a binary Orlanth/Goddess dispute. What I pointed out was that Orlanth was opposed to the Goddess from the very beginning (as opposed to a recent policy decision by the Lunar Empire) and pointed out to Castle Blue, among other factors, in support of that. Other Gods fought at Castle Blue.

    Quote:
    To the extent to which Yelmgatha was the prophet and emperor, that’s what Yelm thought of the whole affair.

    Yelmgatha is not Yelm. Nobody seriously suggests that what the Red Emperor thinks is the same as what the Red Goddess thinks (especially when the Great Sister says otherwise). So Yelmgatha’s view is not Yelm’s view. And Yelm can have a view because at this time, the Great Compromise was broken.

    As for the other gods, I would expect to see: Lodril, Idovanus/Invisible God, Humakt, Ganesataurus, Zorak Zoran, High King Elf, Gorgorma, Storm Bull. Pamalt is too far away

    #8089
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator

    [blue people relegated to ‘nations of Teleos’ territory, although I like the direction]

    Quote:
    What travels are you talking about? I do not see any reference to Orlanth travelling to Castle Blue.

    Once again, I don’t see any reference to Orlanth getting his people from foreign lands. Your position (and also interpretations of my position) seems to rest on unspoken assumptions that you take for granted but are a mystery to me. It would help immensely if you spelled out what you are thinking.

    First Orlanth went to her with contests . . . and he summoned his council and family to war. They brought their brave followers, who sought adventure upon the reaches of the mythic worlds, and they circled around the whole battlefield three times, looking at it and preparing, drawing closer. They saw the army of the Red Lunar Empress attacking Castle Blue, whose valiant defenders were in danger of falling before the furious assault. They landed, from the north.

    Going to her. Bringing. Seeking adventure upon the reaches [a heroquest image?]. Drawing closer. Landing. In my lexicon these are traveling words indicating going from one place to another. Perhaps they also add up to some allegory to which only you have the key. Believe it or not, I like to try the texts for their exoteric meaning first and only get creative if they defy that reading. Perhaps my thought is too crude for you. I do not have access to the minds of the gods. I only have the texts.

    Also the Orlanthi are either “foreigners” or they are a nation of Teleos, yes or no?

    Now it is possible that Castle Blue is not “a center of power in the Oronin Lake” as well as “a gateway,” (FS) and it is possible that the fight might not have been “about Lake Oronin” (WH), but at this point, once again, our signifiers start growing disparate. It is also possible that references to specific phenomena on “the islands” and “above the Castle” are really about the hero plane. And it is even possible that the Orlanthi reference to the waves rising like cliff walls higher than a bowshot around the Oronin Lake is about the hero plane. And it is even possible that the Bat won semi-permanent reality on the physical plane (WH) through a wholly spiritual conflict.

    But the accumulation of concrete geographical detail tests my tolerance for the entirely spiritual interpretation. Yes, Hidden Castles are strange and paradoxical places, but are they strange and paradoxical in the sense that they encourage chroniclers to describe mystic experiences in concrete terms? How strange and paradoxical that is!

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    If it is your position (I’m taking a stab in the dark here) that the tripartite army led by Orlanth, Elmal and Vyran in Orlanth and Red Shepelkirt is actually a mortal army assembled from Brolians, Blue People and what-have-you, then I disagree. I see it as an army of the Storm Tribe and the battle takes place wholly within the Gods World. Who’s right? I really don’t know. It depends on how far the Great Compromise broke down and that’s something we haven’t been told.

    That is actually my position, obscure though it may appear. Remember, FS and the Orlanth story agree that the goddess is still mortal in the early stages of the conflict. After the early stages, in order to participate as a nominal deity, she was at Castle Blue, the weird place in that lake on the map of the inner world. (Which means that if Orlanth “went to her,” he traveled.)

    As for the armies, either the texts are clear on their mortality or again, only you have the key to the allegory behind the apparent simplicity:

    “Gods and mortals met and died. “(WH)

    “Many good men and women died there.” (FS)

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    Orlanth is not home there among the Carmanian ancestor deities

    Uncle Peter, you have spent how much time today trying to browbeat me that Orlanth is not a “foreigner” here?

    If he is not at home at Castle Blue, is he not a “native” of the site?

    Does that differ in some functional way from being a “foreigner” in the workings of Castle Blue?

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    Castle Blue has not said to be a binary Orlanth/Goddess dispute. What I pointed out was that Orlanth was opposed to the Goddess from the very beginning (as opposed to a recent policy decision by the Lunar Empire) and pointed out to Castle Blue, among other factors, in support of that. Other Gods fought at Castle Blue.

    Thanks. Let’s keep finding out who they were now.

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    To the extent to which Yelmgatha was the prophet and emperor, that’s what Yelm thought of the whole affair.

    Yelmgatha is not Yelm. Nobody seriously suggests that what the Red Emperor thinks is the same as what the Red Goddess thinks (especially when the Great Sister says otherwise). So Yelmgatha’s view is not Yelm’s view. And Yelm can have a view because at this time, the Great Compromise was broken.

    “Prophet” and emperor. One of the things I like about Yelmgatha is the way he reforms the Yelmic faith once again. For our purposes here, that means that unless Yelm had something to say about it, yes, the two views are one in the eyes of the temples and the state and the diviners and everybody. Besides, if Yelm is voicing strong opinions during the abrogation of the Compromise, I would expect the first thing He would do is to correct an emperor enthroned in His name and thwarting His will.

    Emperor and Prophet Yelmgatha sent his son to fight on the goddess’s side. If this would have run counter to the god’s interests, would Yelmgatha have reigned quite so long? Or was losing an heir chastisement enough?

    Either way, after the moonrise Yelmgatha makes that interesting separate compromise on behalf of the Dara Happan way so Yelm tacitly swears “acceptance” if not “allegiance” here. (He must not abase Himself.)

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    As for the other gods, I would expect to see: Lodril, Idovanus/Invisible God, Humakt, Ganesataurus, Zorak Zoran, High King Elf, Gorgorma, Storm Bull. Pamalt is too far away

    Distance kind of gets at the “foreigner” question.

    So which swore acceptance, which swore allegiance and which abased themselves?

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