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This topic contains 105 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of David Scott David Scott 2 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #7102
    Profile photo of Niall
    Niall
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Niall on March 8, 2014, 06:03
    There is a rpg company (name escapes me) which brought out a pdf of a town which when you clicked on the locations on the map it went straight to the page with the info. I will go dig it up.

    #7171
    Profile photo of Niall
    Niall
    Spectator

    Red Smiths.

    So why have the nomads not learned the art of smithing? Or captured a smith or paid one to work for them?

    I understand there is no bronze found in Prax or the Wastes, but they can trade for it yes? Or is that all to civilised and against everything they stand for?

    #7172
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    To be a free member of a Praxian tribe, you need to follow the herds, and not be sedentary (with one big caveat of course: the priestesses of the Paps). Metal-working demands special skill and expertise and the ability to transmit that knowledge from generation to generation. Praxian tribes also have a fairly minimal amount of surplus that can be used to support non-pastoralists (full-time warriors, holy people, and shamans being the most important). Most tribes may have a lineage or two that know how to recast old bronze vessels and tools. But it is far easier to trade/steal bronze from the civilized lands that border Prax (or better yet the civilized folk of the River of Cradles) than for your clan to support a smith and his apprentices as you travel through the Wastelands.

    #7176
    Profile photo of Jon Hunter
    Jon Hunter
    Spectator

    Ok Compare the two options

    a) Steal or trade for the items you want

    a) Steal or trade for the the bronze ore which is rarer in this area than the items
    Learn the skills to make initially at very low quality
    Cart heavy kit required round as a nomadic people
    Make it economically viable
    Overcome cultural and religious issues

    which do you think makes more sense?

    Quote:
    Quote from Niall on March 27, 2014, 12:04
    Red Smiths.

    So why have the nomads not learned the art of smithing? Or captured a smith or paid one to work for them?

    I understand there is no bronze found in Prax or the Wastes, but they can trade for it yes? Or is that all to civilised and against everything they stand for?

    #7179
    Profile photo of Niall
    Niall
    Spectator

    All fair points that I had considered and agree with on the most part..

    Quote:
    Quote from Jeff Richard on March 27, 2014, 12:23Most tribes may have a lineage or two that know how to recast old bronze vessels and tools.

    But if they can do that, it’s not that a big step to learn how to make a clay mould for a bronze sword, lance point or arrow heads. Bronze age forges weren’t big. Carting stone moulds would be a pain for sure, but that’s what clay is for.

    Fuel would be a problem, but then what else is your out of work Oakfed shaman used for?

    And they aren’t moving all year round, are they? I’m sure when pasture is found they stop for a few days and for longer during other times of the year.

    If they (braves) steal bronze it’s no good to them if its ploughshares and other agricultural tools, and who is going to trade Bronze weapons to a bunch of nomads who will probably use them on you next week?

    I’m interested in this as one of my nomad players suggested heading off to Pavis to learn the trade, which would probably take the next ten years of his life to master, if anyone would even teach him.

    #7180
    Profile photo of Jon Hunter
    Jon Hunter
    Spectator

    I can see creative players wanting to do this, I could see young tribesmen wanting to do this to.

    However the practicalities of will make it unviable for both in the long run.

    I think one thing we have all done as younger players is try to write modern invention and innovation driven attitudes into a fantasy campaign.

    Quote:
    Quote from Niall on March 27, 2014, 17:27
    All fair points that I had considered and agree with on the most part..

    Quote:
    Quote from Jeff Richard on March 27, 2014, 12:23Most tribes may have a lineage or two that know how to recast old bronze vessels and tools.

    But if they can do that, it’s not that a big step to learn how to make a clay mould for a bronze sword, lance point or arrow heads. Bronze age forges weren’t big. Carting stone moulds would be a pain for sure, but that’s what clay is for.

    Fuel would be a problem, but then what else is your out of work Oakfed shaman used for?

    And they aren’t moving all year round, are they? I’m sure when pasture is found they stop for a few days and for longer during other times of the year.

    If they (braves) steal bronze it’s no good to them if its ploughshares and other agricultural tools, and who is going to trade Bronze weapons to a bunch of nomads who will probably use them on you next week?

    I’m interested in this as one of my nomad players suggested heading off to Pavis to learn the trade, which would probably take the next ten years of his life to master, if anyone would even teach him.

    #7181
    Profile photo of Niall
    Niall
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Jon Hunter on March 27, 2014, 15:18

    Cart heavy kit required round as a nomadic people

    Though I get the other points you made I don’t understand the heavy kit you’re talking about.

    The crucible is as big as you need it. Tiny for an axe for example. The moulds are small too and made from clay. The bellows are small hide bags and the fire more often than not a hole in the ground. (I’ve seen it done)

    I sometimes think people are imagining a much later time when talking about casting bronze age kit. Anvils and forges etc.

    #7183
    Profile photo of Niall
    Niall
    Spectator

    Who would have done the smithing work in the original city of Pavis, Sorcerers ?

    #7186
    Profile photo of Jon Hunter
    Jon Hunter
    Spectator

    To be fair I was thinking of that.

    I’m also sure there would odd pockets of small scale tinkering and minor casting,But generally speaking it would not be the norm in Prax.

    I’m no expert on bronze working, but I am also sure that good grade weapons would not be made that way.

    The point I made about mindset though is the most interesting one, to a 21st century mindset change and innovation is good thing and normal, to many Gloranthan mindsets, its dangerous alien and scary.

    I’m playing again for the first time in a while and my characters is currently in a God learner ruin, and he petrified of being contaminated and cursed by this advanced magic. Fear of any innovation is very common in 3rd age Glorantha.

    Quote:
    Quote from Niall on March 27, 2014, 18:15

    Quote:
    Quote from Jon Hunter on March 27, 2014, 15:18

    Cart heavy kit required round as a nomadic people

    Though I get the other points you made I don’t understand the heavy kit you’re talking about.

    The crucible is as big as you need it. Tiny for an axe for example. The moulds are small too and made from clay. The bellows are small hide bags and the fire more often than not a hole in the ground. (I’ve seen it done)

    I sometimes think people are imagining a much later time when talking about casting bronze age kit. Anvils and forges etc.

    #7187
    Profile photo of Jon Hunter
    Jon Hunter
    Spectator

    Dwarves and EWF men.

    However lack of bronze would have created an issue there.

    that does lead me to a question, if the EWF was based on draconian magic why does Pavis become sorcery based which is more the God Learner Vibe?

    Quote:
    Quote from Niall on March 27, 2014, 19:06
    Who would have done the smithing work in the original city of Pavis, Sorcerers ?
    #7191
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Pavis had access to the best smiths in Glorantha – the dwarves. Human crafters might have settled in Pavis just to have a chance to learn from the dwarves. It was a crazy time.

    Pavis was allied to the EWF but was not himself a dragon friend. He could not speak with dragons, did not know their magic, etc. His magic did not come from the gods or the spirits, but from his own knowledge of the secrets of the universe. That’s sorcery.

    #7192
    Profile photo of Jon Hunter
    Jon Hunter
    Spectator

    So was sorcery big in the EWF? With both Pavis and Delecti as significant sorcerers from the EWF. or is it that the guys whose memory remain happen to have not been dragon magicians?

    #7195
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Dragon Pass under the Third Council was a time of great intellectual and philosophical ferment. Renegade God Learners sought patronage from the Dragon Lords. The cults of Lhankor Mhy and Issaries were held in great respect by both the EWF and the MSE. New truths had been discovered, and even more were ready to be explored. The Perfect Man had founded a new city in the ruins of Genert’s Garden, aided by both Dwarf and Elf. Harmony and understanding was thought possible between man and dragon, and man and Elder Race. Heck, let’s break out into song:

    Harmony and understanding
    Sympathy and trust abounding
    No more falsehoods or derisions
    Golden living dreams of visions
    Mystic crystal revelation
    And the minds true liberation

    It was the dawning of the Age of Aquarius. And then it got brutally smacked by Goldentooth, Alakoring, troll betrayal, dragonewt betrayal, and eventually the Dragonkill.

    #7197
    Profile photo of Jon Hunter
    Jon Hunter
    Spectator

    Have you been drinking the coolaid Jeff?

    #7198
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Ahh, so it was the 60’s revolution before disco came and ruined it. 😉

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