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  • #10659
    Profile photo of Mankcam
    Mankcam
    Spectator

    I started this thread because many of my queries tended to threaten to hijack the Western Religion thread by going off-topic. I tend to ask questions about religion, but then go off on other cultural tangents, so I thought perhaps better to start a new thread with a title that encompasses a wide range of topics

    So, do we know much about the city of Handra?

    I’m aware that Handra is a major mercantile port, built of seven islands in the river delta of the New Fens.

    I know that it is governed by a Council of Guilds/Societies. I don’t have much more definitive info on it, although it is easy to see it is probably the single most important settlement in Maniria & The New Coast, and an obvious thorn in the side to the Trader Princes now that sea travel is replacing the old inland trade routes.

    – What is the dominant religion and culture of Handra?

    I suspect there are various Malkioni Ascended Masters, and probably some Orlanthi ones as well, so I assume it is a Henotheistic culture like Safelster? Or is it more Orlanthi in focus with Malkioni rulers, like the Trader Prince towns?

    I understand that the city patron is the founder, Handra Liv, although I do not have much more information than that. I presume worship of Handra Liv is like revering a localised Ascended Master, rather than Ancestor Worship or an Animistic magical practice.

    – Is the role of Handra Liv a protective patron for the city, or one who enhances financial prosperity, or a bit of both?
    – Do the priests of Handra Liv have any theistic powers outside the city itself?

    – Also, do we have any point of reference for describing Handra at all, its type of architecture etc?
    My earlier impressions used to portray it with a Ventian flavour, although I am unsure if that is too medieval now, given the more ancient flavour of the Malkioni in the G2G.

    ‘Just throwing some queries out there

    #10660
    Profile photo of Mankcam
    Mankcam
    Spectator

    I can’t edit my previous post – I meant to write that my previous impressions of Handra were Venetian in flavour, not ‘Ventian’…
    – Also, I forgot to ask, is Handra part of The Quinpolic League? I get the impression it could be, but have not seen a direct reference regarding this yet in G2G (or I may have overlooked it).

    #10661
    Profile photo of Mankcam
    Mankcam
    Spectator

    Whoops – I inadvertently started this thread with the same title as a previous thread I started a month or so ago. I am unsure how to directly contact the forum moderators, but I would be grateful if the moderators could this was just add my posting to my previous ‘Malkioni queries’ thread, there’s no need for me to have multiple threads on the same topic…

    #10662
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator

    Guide facts

    Dormal sailed here in the Opening (c. 1580 ST). Handra built a fleet of ships before he returned. Some Handrans joined his voyage to the west. p142

    The Holy Country suppressed the Handran Fleet (c. 1581 ST) p144

    The Holy Country laid claim to the waterways in and around Handra (Probably 1581 ST) p239

    Handra maintains a fleet of Triemes. p350

    It was enriched by the Opening p353

    The High Priestess of Handra Liv is Obrana, the true ruler of the city. The city makes it wealth trading between Esrolia and Ralios. Its rulers seek to emulate Esrolian style and culture
    Handra is built on seven isles in a lagoon crisscrossed with canals. p354

    It has a population of 10,000. The Temple of Handra Liv has become extremely wealthy under the leadership of Obrana. The temple sponsors many mercantile adventures. p355

    The King of Nimistor plots against it. p356

    As does Fay Jee. Handra was founded by refugees from Ralios, seeking to fulfil a prophecy and also survivors from Slontos. p357

    It survived the Closing through Mournsea Fishing. It is ruled by a suprisingly democratic council of guilds and temples. p358

    They are allied with the Mournsea Ludoch. In the New Fens are Newtrlings, giant otters, Broos and marsh people. p361

    #10664
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator

    To answer your queries

    What is the dominant religion and culture of Handra?

    Malkioni. Or rather a fusion between the Safelstran henotheists and the survivors of Slontos (who are probably similar to the Aeolians and the Ramalians). That is being overlaid by the Esrolian fashion of the rulers and their hanger-ons.

    A big question is what the Holy Country domination was like and how it lasted for. The Holy Country takes Handra circa 1581 ST but there’s no indication of when it lost control. At one time, I thought the loss of Handra was relatively early (is when the war with Smelch began) but I now think the probable date is 1616 ST.

    The Holy Country dominion would have probably been through the Temple of Dormal. Any anger against the foreign domination is largely quietened by the influx of wealth. Once the Holy Country Fleet is destroyed (in 1616 ST), it is the temple of Handra Liv that takes the lead.

    I suspect there are various Malkioni Ascended Masters, and probably some Orlanthi ones as well, so I assume it is a Henotheistic culture like Safelster? Or is it more Orlanthi in focus with Malkioni rulers, like the Trader Prince towns?

    Ascended Masters do not confer magic so there wouldn’t be popular worship of them. What Ascended Masters do are patrons and teachers of philosophical schools. If there is a school or two of Malkioni magicians in Handra, they would follow the teachings of an ascended master

    What the people of Handra would do is acknowledge the supremacy of the Invisible God and worship lesser gods (such as Orlanth, Lhankor Mhy and so forth). There also would be mystery cults from the Arkati and and Holy Country and even whisperers of the Book of Secrets.

    I understand that the city patron is the founder, Handra Liv, although I do not have much more information than that. I presume worship of Handra Liv is like revering a localised Ascended Master, rather than Ancestor Worship or an Animistic magical practice.

    Handra Liv comes from Ralios, following a prophecy. We don’t know if he was a Malkioni or not. I imagine his cult would communicate with him for oracular wisdom and it would be a Hero Cult rather than an Ascended Master. Any magic that his priests have would be mostly from associated cults and peoples (like the Ludoch, the Holy Country etc).

    Also, do we have any point of reference for describing Handra at all, its type of architecture etc?

    Esrolian. Many of its buildings are new as Handra was just a fisherman’s town before Dormal landed. Only the Temple of Handra would be older and that would be Safelstran in appearance.

    #10665
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator

    Also, I forgot to ask, is Handra part of The Quinpolic League? I get the impression it could be, but have not seen a direct reference regarding this yet in G2G (or I may have overlooked it).

    As I indicated before, I think Handra was a client state of the Holy Country until recently. Now that the Pharaoh’s gone, some people might be agitating for an alliance with the League (whose five cities do not include Handra) but others might be wary of their atheism.

    #10667
    Profile photo of Mankcam
    Mankcam
    Spectator

    Thanks for getting back to me so quick. I am slowly digesting all the info I can from the G2G, but it is great to see so much of this info on Handra compiled in one location. I have not read Esrolia in any great detail yet, and I totally missed the part of Esrolian domination. I was puzzled while the picture of Obrana depicted her in Esrolian-style clothing rather than Malkioni garb, so now I can clearly see the influence of the culture bleed.

    So now I’m picturing it was perhaps a dark dank marshy place with some pile homes out over the water (like Laketown in Jackson’s version of The Hobbit), but after the influx of trade from Esrolia it was developed into a thriving city with Esrolian architecture for many of the newer buildings and public works.

    It makes sense that the Esrolian dominance declined once the God-King disappeared, and I feel the city would be in its best interests to establish links with The Quinpolic League, otherwise it would be exposed to pirates and other Trade Prince rival activities.

    Thank you, this is excellent food for thought…

    #10668
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    I’d describe Handra as about as only very superficially Malkioni. Cults from Ralios, the Holy Country, and Maniria can all be found there. Or as Peter properly described it:

    What the people of Handra would do is acknowledge the supremacy of the Invisible God and worship lesser gods (such as Orlanth, Lhankor Mhy and so forth). There also would be mystery cults from the Arkati and and Holy Country and even whisperers of the Book of Secrets.

    I’d add that Handra Liv is the goddess of the city of Handra and her temple is the wealthiest institution in the city. Issaries is a very prominent cult as well. There’s also shrines or temples to the Mournsea, the Noshain, and to whatever gods or spirits reside in the New Fens. Some might even identify the Esrolian Imarja as the Invisible God. Most consider the Invisible God a largely abstract cosmological Creator god, and primarily worship more useful gods like Orlanth, Ernalda, Handra Liv, Issaries, Dormal, Lhankor Mhy, ancestors, local spirits, etc.

    #10670
    Profile photo of Mankcam
    Mankcam
    Spectator

    If the native people from the New Fens region were Slonton refugees before Handra Liv showed up from Safelster – what visual analogies do we have for the Slontons? Considering many folk are descended from the Slontans, possibly such as Ramalians, Eolians, Manirian coastal peoples, (? possibly also those from Caladraland), is there a visual analogy from historic real world that can be used to portray Slontan cultural influence?

    Also, does Handra mint its own coins at all? Previously I envisioned that Handra would mint silver guilders for the Manirian & New Coast region, although now I suspect that the settlement is too small for that now.

    If that is so, would Handrans accept several types of coinage on their streets? I know that barter may be the main source of trading throughout Glorntha, but I also think a city of Handra’s size would also accept coinage as a hard currency. I suspect coins minted in Notchet would be common, gives the trade connections with Esrolia. Would the next most likely coin accepted be the Senatos Ducat perhaps? I suppose the Seshnegi Imperial might also have validity in Handra? These little trappings help portray the setting, so I’m after the little things here

    #10674
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator

    AFAIK the Slontans are people in Ramalia, Handra, Fay Jee (from Herolal) and Peelo (from Jadnor). We don’t know much about the Slontans save they were God Learners following the Abiding Book and there was some religious issue involving the Book of Secrets. As a result, I believe that Slontans are similar to the Quinpolic League in style and culture (although many would have sunk to worshipping gods after the flood).

    There’s nothing to prevent Handra from minting its own coins. Jonstown which is even smaller has a mint. I suspect Handra’s coinage would be a mixture of copper and silver. Since it expanded during the Holy Country hegemony, the coins would reflect Holy Country practice (clacks and guilders). Local coins would have the image of Handra Liv while other common coins would be from the Holy Country proper, Safelster or Seshnela. I’m not sure that the Quinpolic league would like coins with the image of the Tanisoran Tyrants so they might go for Dormal on their coins.

    #10676
    Profile photo of Mankcam
    Mankcam
    Spectator

    Peter I just realised that some of my ideas of Handra actually came from an article you did for the Tradetalk fanzine a few years ago – I will have to go find that from the vaults and dust off and see what can be salvaged from that and ported into the current interpretation of Handra. The Venetian flavour is far too medieval now, but I think some of the stuff on the Guild Council etc can work fine

    It was a great piece of fandom by the way, I did like that portrayal of Handra at the time, and I’m sure some of those aspects can survive

    #10677
    Profile photo of Mankcam
    Mankcam
    Spectator

    Yes I see Handra as minting the coins for The New Coast, and Handra Liv will definitely be depicted on the back of most coins. I think that perhaps some coins are based on Seshnegi coinage, whilst others are based on Esrolit square coins, just for flavour.

    Its clear to see that Esrolia has had a huge cultural impact on Handra, much more than I originally thought. This is realistic, considering we now know that Esrolia was administrating Handra as an annexed client-state of the Holy Country for much longer than originally conceived; up until the disappearance of the Pharoah/God-King.

    I kinda like the culture-bleed concept quite a bit. Unless I get influenced otherwise, I am now visually portraying the Malkioni as a kind of late imperial Rome/ early Byzantine Empire culture (with influences of the Macedonian Empire, to shake things up a bit). Mixing this with the Esrolit Earth Cult aspects will provide a nice exotic culture brimming with ancient world flavour.

    #10678
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Esrolia has had a huge impact on all of Maniria because that’s where the money and culture comes from. From four centuries, the Trader Princes have been transporting Esrolian goods, goddesses, and culture across Maniria to Ralios. Esrolia is incredibly rich, incredibly culturally attractive, and where the trappings of importance and status derive.

    #10682
    Profile photo of Mankcam
    Mankcam
    Spectator

    Yes I’ve always been interested in Esrolia as well, ever since I bought the RQ2 Companion as a youth. Its quite a pivotal culture, and worthy of having its own sourcebook published perhaps? It would sure sit nicely next to the Sartar and Pavis books

    Actually if we had an Esrolia book , and we also had a Safelster book, then Maniria could be easily home brewed more or less consistently, given the information provided from the G2G.

    At the end of the day, I am pretty happy with what we have with the G2G, its a marvel to behold the scope of the setting. But I never miss an opportunity to throw a request or two out there 🙂

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