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  • #5910

    There is an interesting source for the size of actual real life units on the frontier on the Roman Empire as opposed to establishment strength. It a strength report on 1st Cohort of Tungrians from Vindolanda – a fort on the northern frontier in Britain. It is from the period 90-120 AD and is dated 18th May. It says Iulius Verecundus was the prefect and that the net number for the cohort was 752 including 6 centurions. It goes on to say that of these 456 are posted elsewhere including 5 centurions (some of the postings that can be read are 46 as guards of the governor, 337 at Coria/Corbridge including 1 or 2 centurions and some at London). It lists the remainder present at Vindolanda as 296 including 1 centurion and of these 15 are sick, 6 wounded and 10 are suffering from inflammation of the eyes. The establishment strength of this unit would be 800.

    #5911
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator

    The Vindolanda tablets are an interesting insight into life at the forts. There’s a website that provides the content of many of them:

    http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk/

    You appear to be referring to tablet 154

    http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk/4DLink2/4DACTION/WebRequestQuery?searchTerm=154&searchType=number&searchField=TVII&thisListPosition=1&thisPageNum=0

    Total 752 inc. 6 centurions
    Absentees:
    Singulares 46
    Coria 337 inc. 2 centurions (?)
    Londinium 1 centurion (?)
    … 6 inc. 1 centurion
    … 9 inc. 1 centurion
    … 11
    … 1
    … 45
    Total 456 inc. 5 centurions
    Present:
    296 inc. 1 centurion
    Of whom there are:
    Unfit 31
    Healthy 265 inc. 1 centurion

    The British Museum book ‘Life and Letters on the Roman Frontier: Vindolanda and its people’ by Alan K. Bowman doesn’t contain that letter (at least the first edition doesn’t) but makes for fascinating reading.

    #5912

    I like the way the Vindalonda list has lippientes (inflammation of the eyes) as a separate category from sick. There are other documents similar to this: one from Moesia and one from the Thebaid. From Doura-Eurpos there are rosters and from Egypt there are payroll accounts giving the names of individual soldiers. The Romans clearly kept very detailed records of unit strength which mostly unfortunately haven’t survived.

    #5914
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    I like the way the Vindalonda list has lippientes (inflammation of the eyes) as a separate category from sick.

    It covered a variety of eye complaints and some were probably contagious, and very common. Lippi – swollen eyes, was common in the Roman world and rendered the sufferer unfit for work. A number of collyrium stamps containing prescribed treatments have been found: one at Cambridge gives the name of the treatment as caesarinium, which we know from other sources consisted of shoemaker’s blacking, copper pyrites, white pepper, opium, zinc oxide and antimony sulphide…

    Medicine and Health Care in Roman Britain by Nicholas Summerton

    Quote:
    There are other documents similar to this: one from Moesia and one from the Thebaid. From Doura-Eurpos there are rosters and from Egypt there are payroll accounts giving the names of individual soldiers. The Romans clearly kept very detailed records of unit strength which mostly unfortunately haven’t survived.

    And at Vindolanda we are lucky to have their notes preserved.

    #5915
    Profile photo of Martin Helsdon
    Martin Helsdon
    Spectator
    Quote:
    I suspect the older the regiment is the more unwilling its soldiers and officers are to deviate in the slightest from received tradition. Ancient regiments like the Stonewall Phalanxes would rather riot than change the pace they march at – “adherence to tradition is why we have survived!” Newer regiments, like those raised by Hon-eel are far more flexible (then again their magic is usually weaker than some unit over a thousand years old). But after over a hundred years, even those regiments have become increasingly hide-bound.

    Hmm, given that Argrath apparently finds and uses what may-or-may-not-be a EWF battle standard, it does pose what geases and other attributes it brings with it..

    #11060
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Jeff, in a different discussion you stated that the Provinces have no magical regiments. They all belong to the Lunar College of Magic. Yet in your link above, you list two magical units belonging to the Provincial Army: The Reaching Moon and the Mirin Moon Mages.

    So to come up with the 14 infantry regiments, I take it that Imther provides no regiments and Holay provides 2 cavalry, 3 infantry and the Mirin Moon Mages, Tarsh provides 7 infantry, 3 Cavalry and the Reaching Moon magical unit, Vanch provides 2 infantry and Aggar provides a Sun Dome Templar unit.

    So basically, the Mirin Moon Mages and Reaching Moon are infantry units with decent magical ratings and range (if we were playing Dragon Pass)?

    #11061
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Well, in the Guide we state that the Provincial Army has no large magical units like that in the Lunar College of Magic, and that’s true. The Reaching Moon priestesses and Mirinite Moon Mages are powerful magicians but do not create cooperative mass-magical effects like the Minor or Major classes.

    #11062
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Okay, because in the original post to this thread you linked to a page where the Reaching Moon and Mirin’s Moon Mages were listed as regiments. You had their magical factors listed as medium and high. Medium being equal to the Comet Seers and High being equal to the Major Class. I’m coming from the angle of the boardgame Dragon Pass. From the info on that link am I to then draw the conclusion that the Reaching Moon and Mirin’s Moon Mages would have regimental units equal in magical factors to the Comet Seers and Major Class respectively? Or would they not be represented on such a board game at all?

    Also, you stated elsewhere in this thread that the Lunar Empire supports 42 magical regiments in addition to its 38 infantry and 28 cavalry. In the game Dragon Pass, there are only 11 (not counting Full Moon Corps) magical regiments represented, the Lunar College of Magic. So there are 31 more magical regiments in the Lunar territories? Are they as powerful as the units we’ve seen in the boardgame? I can’t imagine the Lunar Empire would hold such a huge amount of magic in reserve. The Pentans would need to unite to even probably put together 20 shaman regiments. Why would they not throw twice as many magical regiments at Argrath?

    Or were most of those magical regiments the ones destroyed in the Dragonrise?

    #11063
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Why I’m so relentlessly picking your brain here Jeff is because I’m trying to make the boardgame that encompasses the entire Lunar Empire. The only three real threats they have are Dorastor, Pent and Dragon Pass. But if I slap down 42 magical regiments on a map and the Sartar Magical Union has 10 units and the Praxians toss in 3 more and a typical Pentian incursion tosses in maybe 6-9 more, all the while Dorastor is randomly burping out chaos horrors, then the Lunar Empire is going to walk all over ALL their enemies with ease, despite Harrek and Argrath and ONLY Sheng Seleris could stop them if he united all 10 Arrows and brought down 20 magical regiments upon them, but frankly, even then, it’d be in the Lunar Empires favor or at worst, touch and go.

    So I may be wrong, but I’m really thinking there can’t have been 42 magical regiments, they must have mostly died in the Dragonrise, or else there wouldn’t have been a Hero Wars, there would have been a huge tome of the lists of Moonsons for generations and generations long after the death of Argrath that recounted the many conquests of the Lunar Empire.

    In the game, the lunar magical units are quite powerful and yet the number of regiments are near to, but not equal to neither the Cavalry Corps or the Heartland Corps nor even the Native Furthest Corps. To think that the Lunar Empire actually had, all that time, more magical regiments than they had regiments of the Heartland Corps and 50% more magical regiments than Cavalry regiments. 42 magical regiments? I can’t imagine a board game where you would ever win against the lunars.

    #11066
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Most magical regiments are going to be quite small – think of them as the priests of a single major temple and their bodyguards. The are typically assigned to the Lunar College of Magic when the Red Emperor commands them to take the field. Customarily, the Red Emperor calls forth the following:
    Field School of Magic: this is 1,200 magicians who are trained to work together to create mass magical effects on the battlefield. They are the core of the Lunar College of Magic.
    Full Moon Corps: Lunar demigod warriors often assigned to the Imperial Bodyguard.
    Crater Makers, the Crimson Bat, and Seven from Vistur: These are Lunar specialists, magicians who either call upon the Red Goddess to hurl stones down from the sky, keep the Crimson Bat fed and controllable, or build magical siege ramps. The Seven from Vistur were destroyed in the Dragonrise.
    Blue Moon School, Spell Archers, Comet Seers: These are pre-Lunar temples who are sworn to the Red Emperor.
    Sister’s Army: magicians under the sole authority of Great Sister. Rarely called up in the wars of the Red Emperor.

    Now that is about a quarter of all the magicians that the Red Emperor can assign to the Lunar College of Magic, and is also typically everything the Red Emperor is willing to commit to fight in the Provinces. The Lunar Empire also has magicians in First Blessed and Oraya, who keep the Glowline powerful against the Pentans. The Lunar Empire also has magicians in Glamour and Raibanth, to perform rites and ceremonies for the Red Emperor.

    In 1627, the Empire must keep substantial forces in Oraya (having just fought a dramatic war against the Pentans who reconquered Oraya and even much of First Blessed) and starting in 1628 in the Western Reaches (to defend against Charg).

    Additionally, the reason the Red Emperor rarely commits these other forces into a theater is that they just aren’t very good. And at the same time, they tend to be very high maintenance and costly.

    #11072
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Thanks Jeff, that is extremely helpful. I’ll just make sure after some playtesting that the Lunars have enough magical regiments activated to match up with Pent and enough units available to build to respond to Charg. And make sure they are not as strong as what we saw in Dragon Pass.

    On more question: Are the Carmanian forces separate or a part of the 38 infantry, 28 cavalry, etc. listed as the Lunar Army in GtG?

    #11078
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    There are regiments from the Western Reaches in the Lunar Army, including the Steel Sword Legion, Lasadag Lions, Upland Horse, Whipstock Horse, and Riverfork Horse. There are also units from Oronin, Doblian, and Karasal who previously served the Carmanian Shahs. The Carmanian satraps also maintain small armies.

    #11079
    Profile photo of Pentallion
    Pentallion
    Spectator

    Thanks. Slaps forhead. I knew the answer to that question before I asked. Just painted up the Lasadag Lions regiment and the Steel Horse Legion doh!

    #14408
    Profile photo of Jon Hunter
    Jon Hunter
    Spectator

    OK some questions as regards the workings of the provincial army(ies).

    What level of logistical support is there outside the regimental structure for either the heartland corps or the provincial army?

    What level of armed forces are the rulers of the provinces allowed to maintain and are they part of the provincial army of alternative private forces?

    #14414
    Profile photo of Peter Metcalfe
    Peter Metcalfe
    Spectator

    I’d say that all provincial army units are part of the Provincial Corps. That is they are raised and equipped by the local kings and commanded by the General of the Provincial Army. But because the Kings have their own needs for the units that they raise, there’s always going to be a fair bit of politicking and negotiation and what troops the Provincial General commands in the field and what troops the Kings can order around for their own purposes.

    As for logistical support outside the regimental structure, the tried and true method is to go to a local clan and requisition their cows and other nice stuff which they might have. The people who carry out this task of ordering requisitions are the logistical people inside the regiment.

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