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  • #5338
    Profile photo of Che Webster
    Che Webster
    Spectator

    So, as context, one of my RPG players wants to play a werewolf / werehound Balazaring character. I was wondering what the Gloranthan lore was on were-creatures?

    Minimal references in the Cult Compendium. Where would you recommend I look?

    #6923
    Profile photo of David Scott
    David Scott
    Keymaster

    I’m going to assume you’re doing RQ2 due to the sources you quote – have a look in the RQ2 book, it’s got the stats on: Werepigs, Wolfbrothers & Bearwalkers. Basically they are Hsunchen, search on this site for further info.

    http://www.glorantha.com/?s=hsunchen&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Search

    #6924
    Profile photo of Hannu Kokko
    Hannu Kokko
    Spectator

    There is Telmori stuff ig Dorastor and GoG. lycanhteopy in RQ6

    #6927
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from David Scott on February 19, 2014, 22:14

    Werepigs

    Along with the Tiger Sons, these guys have been a minor obsession for me over the years because they never seemed to find a home in evolving Glorantha in the way that the Wolf Brothers and Bearwalkers grew into the Telmori and the Rathori. If the neglected Mraloti and the exotic Hsa were important enough to account for 50% of the first-described “lycanthropic” hsunchen peoples, what does that imply about the world in the early days?

    Sure, the RQ2 “lycanthropes” also happen to account for 4 out of the 5 D&D were-creatures and so lent themselves to preexisting miniatures and gamer demand for familiar monsters. But so where are the rat hsunchen?

    My suspicion — and I am usually wrong — is that the Tusk Riders ended up taking over the wereboar role and the more derivative “Tusk Brothers” faded from view except for sporadic efforts to work them back into the game as various pig peoples of old Maniria. Which is kind of a grand missed opportunity, given how they are one of the most important hsunchen tribes native to the general Dragon Pass region and so their ways would shape Sartarite assumptions about “lycanthropes.” Maybe some day…

    #6929
    Profile photo of Harald Smith
    Harald Smith
    Spectator

    Werewolf/werehound in Balazar – generally the various dog folk are hostile to werewolves/Telmori, so I’d shy away from them unless your PC’s are all from outside of Balazar. The Balazarings are not Hsunchen, so are not naturally shapeshifters. The main Balazaring tradition is with the spirit, Brother Dog, who aids Foundchild the Hunter. However, if your PC really wants to shapeshift, I’d suggest the following.
    1)they follow Brother Dog
    2)they may have a spirit ally in their dog (i.e. they can communicate with it in some fashion)
    3)their shaman or spirit ally has given them a powerful charm with a dog spirit within; they can invoke the charm to change one body part into that of a dog; that is the charm might be Hound’s Nose or Dog’s Ears, etc. Thus they can partially shapeshift, though likely restricted how often.
    4)they may desire more charms with more parts of the dog spirit so they can transform more fully, but have do to favors for the shaman or spirit ally to do so.
    5)the shapeshifting charm has certain taboos associated with it such as: always fight wolves or werewolves; always chase away cats; must give the liver of any kill to a dog; etc.

    #6930
    Profile photo of Harald Smith
    Harald Smith
    Spectator

    >Tusk Riders ended up taking over the wereboar role

    Personally, I’d still include some % of Tusk Riders as Tusk Brothers/werepigs. They may well be great leaders amongst them.

    #6931
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Harald Smith on February 20, 2014, 01:21
    Personally, I’d still include some % of Tusk Riders as Tusk Brothers/werepigs. They may well be great leaders amongst them.

    My furtive suspicion is that such a strand of werepiggery within the overall Ivory Plinth complex reflects both how the folk of Aram have changed over the years and what “original” pre-GL pig hsunchen culture might have looked like.

    The Ernaldan association with swine is possibly another facet of this . . . but who has time?

    #6933
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Tiger Brothers can be found in Teshnos and Kralorela. Tusk Brothers in Ramalia.

    #6965
    Profile photo of Simon Phipp
    Simon Phipp
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Harald Smith on February 20, 2014, 01:19
    Werewolf/werehound in Balazar – generally the various dog folk are hostile to werewolves/Telmori, so I’d shy away from them unless your PC’s are all from outside of Balazar. The Balazarings are not Hsunchen, so are not naturally shapeshifters. The main Balazaring tradition is with the spirit, Brother Dog, who aids Foundchild the Hunter. However, if your PC really wants to shapeshift, I’d suggest the following.

    I’d agree that a werehound is more suitable for Balazar than a werewolf. The stats would be similar to a werewolf, though.

    Quote:
    1)they follow Brother Dog

    A true shapeshifter might have Brother Dog ancestry, but there is no real reason why a shapeshifter needs to worship Brother Dog. The spells may enhance them in beast form. It depends if they are Brother Dog cultists who have gained the ability to shapeshift as part of their cult beliefs, or whether they are naturally shapeshifters.

    Quote:
    2)they may have a spirit ally in their dog (i.e. they can communicate with it in some fashion)

    That would make sense, whether they were Brother Dog worshippers or not. There might be a quest that needs to be performed to gain the familiar.

    Quote:
    3)their shaman or spirit ally has given them a powerful charm with a dog spirit within; they can invoke the charm to change one body part into that of a dog; that is the charm might be Hound’s Nose or Dog’s Ears, etc. Thus they can partially shapeshift, though likely restricted how often.

    If they are not naturally shapeshifters, then yes, this makes sense.

    Quote:
    4)they may desire more charms with more parts of the dog spirit so they can transform more fully, but have do to favors for the shaman or spirit ally to do so.

    Again, yes, this makes sense. If they then gain the abilities to change very part then they could gain the ability to shapeshift properly.

    Quote:
    5)the shapeshifting charm has certain taboos associated with it such as: always fight wolves or werewolves; always chase away cats; must give the liver of any kill to a dog; etc.

    And don’t forget the desire to chase thrown sticks, including javelins/boomerangs, the compulsion to sit when told to and the overwhelming compulsion to not be called a “Bad dog!”. Brother Dog is a helper spirit, so they might be really helpful to Balazring hunters.

    #6966
    Profile photo of Simon Phipp
    Simon Phipp
    Spectator
    Quote:
    My suspicion — and I am usually wrong — is that the Tusk Riders ended up taking over the wereboar role and the more derivative “Tusk Brothers” faded from view except for sporadic efforts to work them back into the game as various pig peoples of old Maniria. Which is kind of a grand missed opportunity, given how they are one of the most important hsunchen tribes native to the general Dragon Pass region and so their ways would shape Sartarite assumptions about “lycanthropes.” Maybe some day…

    Possibly, although the Tusk Riders probably don’t have many Tusk Brothers. Tuskers are definitely seen as mounts, as their god was mastered in the First Age. The fact that Tusk Riders are apparently descended from that union, or a similar union, might mean that Tusk Brothers might be more common, though.

    The Mraloti in the south have a lot more, as they are classic Hsunchen, or were at one point.

    #6971
    Profile photo of Niall
    Niall
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Simon Phipp on February 23, 2014, 14:55
    And don’t forget the desire to chase thrown sticks, including javelins/boomerangs, the compulsion to sit when told to and the overwhelming compulsion to not be called a “Bad dog!”. Brother Dog is a helper spirit, so they might be really helpful to Balazring hunters.

    And sitting out side Citadel gates and chasing every wagon that goes past…

    #6997
    Profile photo of Evilroddy
    Evilroddy
    Spectator

    Are Marloti were-pig Hsunchen or were-boar hsunchen? If they are were-boar Hsunchen are they the same as Tusk-riders? The reason I ask is that, if my memory is correct, the Tusk-riders have trollish blood mixed into their ancestry. Do Marloti have this same connection to the trolls or are they pure blood were-folk, Human-Hsunchen folk. I have always differentiated between were-pigs (Marloti/ Human-Hsunchen) and were-boars (Human-Hsunchen) on the one hand and Tusk-riders (Troll-Human hybrids who happen to ride giant boars on the other. Am I wrong in this position? My Marloti snuffle and search for crustaceans, shellfish and “sea-truffles” on the muddy shores of their land or tend their pig herds in the inland forests while being benignly oppressed by Malkioni Trader Princes from castles dotted about the land. They of course react very badly to anyone who washes ashore alive but bless the dead who wash up as food for the crabs, clams, etc. Have I got this all wrong?

    #7014

    The trouble getting Maniria straight is that there are two pig-related peoples in the region. The Entruli were non-Vingkotling Orlanthi who settled the (then) coastal regions in the Dawn Age. The Mraloti are pig-hsunchen, possibly later immigrants after the coastal Entruli accepted Western influences.

    The Ralian and Manirian Mraloti don’t appear to have any troll connections (unless Arkat made them accept some). It was an Entruli king Harand Boardick who axcepted the assistance of Jogo Zaramzil for the battle of Arrowmound.

    (A list of enemy deities of the Orlanthi sows some confusion whether he fought Jarani Whitetop – as per KoS and Thunder Rebels) or Jorganos the Archer.)

    http://www.glorantha.com/docs/enemy-gods-of-the-orlanthi/

    The Tusk Riders are descended from the Aramites, a human tribe in the Vingkotling and Heortling lands led by Aram ya Udram, a heor who overcame both the god pig Gouger sent on a vengeance mission by one of the earth goddesses and a demon of Darkness. The Aramites rode the huge boars of the Stinking Forest – definitely after Aram overcame Gouger, possibly already earlier.

    Their transmutation from demon-worshipping, pig-riding humans to the tusked humanoids that occupy the lands around the Ivory Plinth now appears to have begun with the EWF hero Varankol (or sometimes Varnakol) thhe Mangler, who had the tusks of his favourite boar implanted.

    It is impossible to say whether the rank and file tusk riders were originally created the same way. In the game King of Dragon Pass there is a story arc in which one housecarl gets abducted by Tusk Riders and later returns changed into one of them. If allowed back into the clan and allowed to marry, his son inherits the tusk rider traits.

    All that we know about the ritual that changesva human into a tusk rider is that it is extremely painful. The darkness demon that thrives on torture probably has something to do with this.

    I cannot say whether this transformation into a Darkness related humanoid is connected to Kyger Litor. I suspect it isn’t, and that it is a parallel to becoming a Kitori, althoughbwith a less savory patron than the Only Old One or his father Argan Argar. The darkness tie seems to help surviving the troll rebirth ritual, which is still deemed necessary to turn a tusk rider into an uz.

    I don’t think the Tusk Riders are troll hybrids, rather boar hybrids. They don’t seem to have any power to change their shape (unlike Kitori) beyond the ability to adopt humans to their shape.

    I’ll have to check Lands of Thunder gazetteer about the exact nature of the boars and sows crossing the upper Oslir into Tarsh, there was a reference about their mythical relations in there. And of course Anaxial’s Roaster.

    Their inclusion in the troll types list probably stems from the fact that they aren’t humans any more, have tusks, worship a darkness entity and are highly unpleasant. The Kitori have been included among the trolls as well, and aren’t necessarily descended from Kyger Litor. (I cannot say whether or how many trolls joined the Kitori when Ezkankekko founded them.)

    The guide appears to refer to the tusk riders as half-trolls quite consistently. I view this as a misconception by their human neighbors. I doubt the uz call them anything like half-humans (suggesting that the other half was uz).

    all iklustrations of uz are regarded as accurate for some population or another, so we know that there is a great variety of uz facial shapes. The tusk rider faces would fit in there quite well, they worship some vile demon of darkness – “it quacks like a duck, it walks like a duck…”

    Not so. To be uz means to be descended from Kyger Litor, and the Aramites cannot claim any such lineage.

    #7015
    Profile photo of David Scott
    David Scott
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    Quote from Joerg Baumgartner on March 3, 2014, 09:23
    The trouble getting Maniria straight is that there are two pig-related peoples in the region. The Entruli were non-Vingkotling Orlanthi who settled the (then) coastal regions in the Dawn Age.

    The Guide (Presidential sneak peek) and History of Heortling Peoples both say

    Quote:
    In the Gods Age, Slontos was the blessed land of the Entruli, a peaceful and kind-hearted people of the wilds who were friends to the plants and animals. They were nearly destroyed by the monsters of the Great Darkness, but King Hooafting saved them. He established a series of sacred forts, but their unity was broken when Beked, the protector of the peoples, was killed. Afterwards, they offended the sea gods, and Herilia the Sweet City was overwhelmed by the sea. The survivors were conquered by the Pralori elk people and their cruel Serpent Beast sorcerers.

    It’s not until Blood over Gold that the Entruli become a Pig people and the Boar Wars come into existence. I’m unsure if the Guide contradicts this.

    Quote:
    The Mraloti are pig-hsunchen, possibly later immigrants after the coastal Entruli accepted Western influences.

    They were there at the Dawn, but called the Mralothenyi and centred on Pig Hollow. You can see them on the Dawn map here opposite the broken Council:

    https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/106190330912720100528/albums/5985164024073312033/5985164031746456114?sqi=102577244714186267235&sqsi=fb96c57b-1a85-4510-85b0-affddabffd74

    It’s not good resolution, so find Nochet, then Ezel, then they are the campfire beyond.

    They are marked as Orlanth and Ernalda, so I’m inclined to say they are not hsunchen, but Orlanthi. This would be a clear connection to the Animal Mothers and Mralota. I’d suggest her subcult is still centred there.

    History of the Heortling People says

    Quote:
    Mralothenyi (Pig Hollow)
    •Sacred Rooting Ground for tribe
    •in the Old Woods, south of Skyreach Mts.
    •400 humans, called Harandings
    •hunter gatherer
    •Pig People, with nobles riding upon huge tuskers
    •Orlanth, Esrola (Ketha)
    •Compliant servants to the elves of Arstola Forest

    Riding Giant Boar would make them like Praxian Beast Riders (to me)

    I’m not sure there are any Pig hsunchen in Maniria, as usual YGWV.

    #7016
    Quote:
    Quote from David Scott on March 3, 2014, 11:57

    Quote:
    Quote from Joerg Baumgartner on March 3, 2014, 09:23
    The trouble getting Maniria straight is that there are two pig-related peoples in the region. The Entruli were non-Vingkotling Orlanthi who settled the (then) coastal regions in the Dawn Age.

    The Guide (Presidential sneak peek) and History of Heortling Peoples both say

    Quote:
    In the Gods Age, Slontos was the blessed land of the Entruli, a peaceful and kind-hearted people of the wilds who were friends to the plants and animals. They were nearly destroyed by the monsters of the Great Darkness, but King Hooafting saved them. He established a series of sacred forts, but their unity was broken when Beked, the protector of the peoples, was killed. Afterwards, they offended the sea gods, and Herilia the Sweet City was overwhelmed by the sea. The survivors were conquered by the Pralori elk people and their cruel Serpent Beast sorcerers.

    It’s not until Blood over Gold that the Entruli become a Pig people and the Boar Wars come into existence. I’m unsure if the Guide contradicts this.

    Not quite. Entra, the sow goddess, figures in the Entruli background, and the Entruli migration into the western parts of Maniria is mentioned in the old RuneQuest Companion.

    Harand Boardick’s Harandings were named among the Entruli in some material during the HQ1 time.

    Quote:
    Quote:
    The Mraloti are pig-hsunchen, possibly later immigrants after the coastal Entruli accepted Western influences.

    They were there at the Dawn, but called the Mralothenyi and centred on Pig Hollow. You can see them on the Dawn map here opposite the broken Council:

    https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/106190330912720100528/albums/5985164024073312033/5985164031746456114?sqi=102577244714186267235&sqsi=fb96c57b-1a85-4510-85b0-affddabffd74

    It’s not good resolution, so find Nochet, then Ezel, then they are the campfire beyond.

    They are marked as Orlanth and Ernalda, so I’m inclined to say they are not hsunchen, but Orlanthi. This would be a clear connection to the Animal Mothers and Mralota. I’d suggest her subcult is still centred there.

    I would expect Entra rather than Mralota this close to Esrolia. That said, the distinction between Hsunchen and Orlanthi becomes difficult in northern Maniria – Greymane appears to have some Pendali ancestors, and the Harandings at least are pig totem Orlanthi. A campfire beyond Ezel would still be sufficiently close to Skyreach Mountain.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Gouger was their living protector/ancestor who was lost when summoned to Dragon Pass to fight Aram’s tribe.

    Quote:
    History of the Heortling People says

    Quote:
    Mralothenyi (Pig Hollow)
    •Sacred Rooting Ground for tribe
    •in the Old Woods, south of Skyreach Mts.
    •400 humans, called Harandings
    •hunter gatherer
    •Pig People, with nobles riding upon huge tuskers
    •Orlanth, Esrola (Ketha)
    •Compliant servants to the elves of Arstola Forest

    Riding Giant Boar would make them like Praxian Beast Riders (to me)

    The same could be said about the Pralori deer riders, and of course about the Galanini. That whole Plundering of Aron myth appears to me as a primarily Vingkotling myth that might not be shared with Orlanthi recruited by the Lightbringer missionaries.

    Quote:
    I’m not sure there are any Pig hsunchen in Maniria, as usual YGWV.

    To my best knowledge, the Mraloti of northern Ramalia are of Hsunchen origin, and not related to the Entruli. They were counted among the Hsunchen of Genertela (in the article of that same name, formerly on glorantha.com, currently offline) and had no mention of ties to Orlanth there.

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