Home Forums Glorantha Glorantha Discussions Genealogy of the Earth Gods

This topic contains 12 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Jeff Richard Jeff Richard 3 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 13 posts - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #5309
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    The genealogies of the gods is a matter of importance for poets, philosophers, and sorcerers. These genealogies help illustrate the runic devolutions and combinations from the perfect Celestial Court to the mixed world we live in.

    The genealogy of the Earth Gods is well-known throughout Genertela .  This version of the story was accepted by the God Learners and can be found throughout central and western Genertela and in Umathela. Mother Earth, called GATA, bore GENERT and PAMALT without partner. With Genert, she bore ASRELIA, TY KORA TEK, and the many goddesses of the land.

    Asrelia loved Umath, the son of Gata and Aether the Primal Sky. But she never could be with him and took other lovers. Some say Asrelia took her own father as a lover, and with him bore Maran Gor, Esrola, and Ernalda. Other stories say that with Lodril she bore the three daughters of the Earth.

    When other gods coveted Asrelia’s treasures, she hid deep in the Earth and gave sovereignty of the Earth to her daughter Ernalda, who was called the Bountiful Mother, the Giver, the Sustainer,  and the Mistress of Peace. She mothered the children of Earth, and with Flamal gave birth to Aldrya. It is she whom the Rivals fought over, and it was she who tamed the turbulent Orlanth through marriage. He became her husband and defender, and together Ernalda and Orlanth rule as the Queen and King of the gods.

    #6651

    This has always been somewhat strange in the Monomyth.

    The western Erasachula were thought into existence, and both the earliest fire and sea gods made their entry by separation of a prior principle. Ok, there is the charming myth of Wild Man copulating all manner of deities into being, but are there any “made” or “spoken” deities (other than the original Mostali)? There are plenty examples of made mortals. Why the insistence on Man Rune (or Beast Rune) style reproduction? Why explain away the parthenogenesis of the subsequent Earth goddesses when accepting it in the first instance?

    Are there any deities born from froth, the clang of weapons, or simply the passage of Uleria or a similarly fertile agent? (Kero Fin might qualify, born from a seed planted – not necessarily copulated – by Larnste.)

    Why is there a genealogy for the northern (or rather Theyalan, when you bring Oria into the game) Earth deities, but not for the southern ones? The Jrusteli encountered Theyalans in Umathela, too. Is that why they ignored the rest of the Doraddi pantheon (except, for some unscrutable reason, Bolongo)?

    #6652

    How are the Pelorian goddesses linked to this version (if at all). Oria, Denegeria, Everina, Vergenari, Pela, Erenbaya, Dendara etc.? Are they thought of as related to Gata and Asrelia and/or Lodril? I was also wondering what relationship if any there is between Umath as air god in this story and Entekos as the air goddess in Peloria? You would guess that the God Learners would know of the Pelorian religions and try to link them in to their monomyth.

    #6658

    My guess is that the Jrusteli knowledge of the Pelorian religions was filtered through the Theyalans. That, coupled with the God Learner method of viewing other cultures’ deities as manifestations of known (Theyalan) deities, will probably have left the secrets of the Pelorian deities obscure. Neither the EWF nor the Irensavalist exiles that formed Carmania were sympathetic to God Learner researchers passing through. We have only two God Learner texts on EWF era Dragon Pass.

    Even though the God Learners had infiltrated the Lhankor Mhy libraries, that would not have given them access to the Pelorian religion. I doubt that even Orlanthi religious ceremonies would have been documented in those libraries – why write treatises on things you can witness once every year?

    I suppose that knowledge about orgiastic rites to Surensliba or Oria would have filtered back as rites to Uleria and/or Ernalda (or Maran Gor).

    Entekos probably was known as Dendara, the (non-Ernalda) earth wife of Yelm. She was not recognized as a planetary deity by the Jrusteli – btw, where did the God Learners get Moskalf from? The Praxians? Unknown western Star Lore?

    Denegeria clearly maps to Voria, Pela, Vergenari etc. to Theyalan grain and herd goddesses. Little more would have been known, except perhaps for some interesting local variation of priestly costumes or special sacrifices that would be visible to tourists or visiting merchants.

    #6659
    Profile photo of Simon Phipp
    Simon Phipp
    Spectator

    I’m happier with Gata producing Asrelia and Ty Kora Tek by herself, Asrelia producing Ernalda and Maran Gor by herself and Ernalda producing Voria and Babeester Gor by herself.

    Sure, they had husbands and children by them, so Gata/Aether Primolt gave us Umath, Ernalda/Orlanth gave us Barntar, Genert fathered a host of land goddesses to Gata and her daughters, but the Earth goddesses should be able to give birth without having a father involved.

    #6660
    Profile photo of Simon Phipp
    Simon Phipp
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Daniel McLaughlin on January 5, 2014, 11:26
    How are the Pelorian goddesses linked to this version (if at all). Oria, Denegeria, Everina, Vergenari, Pela, Erenbaya, Dendara etc.? Are they thought of as related to Gata and Asrelia and/or Lodril?

    I think Pela is a land goddess born of Gata and Genert. Frona was from Gata/Genert as well. Dorasta was probably born of Pela and Genert.

    Dendara is a mystery, she might have been a daughter of Asrelia, but that is pure guesswork. I don’t think that she is Entekos, despite what the Entekosiad tries to push.

    Oria has a very different origin, I think, based on my hazy recollections. The Pelandan Goddesses have their own origin stories, as I recall. Oria married Lodril, though, and they had a number of land goddesses.

    Quote:
    I was also wondering what relationship if any there is between Umath as air god in this story and Entekos as the air goddess in Peloria? You would guess that the God Learners would know of the Pelorian religions and try to link them in to their monomyth.

    To my mind, Entekos was born when Umath lifted Aether Primolt from the earth. Where the two gods rubbed together, Entekos appeared. So, she protected Aether Primolt from the impure touch of Umath. Storm worshippers see her as the lofty and aloof High Air and Sky worshippers see her as the Lower Sky.

    #6667
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    Quote from Simon Phipp on January 5, 2014, 18:43
    I’m happier with Gata producing Asrelia and Ty Kora Tek by herself, Asrelia producing Ernalda and Maran Gor by herself and Ernalda producing Voria and Babeester Gor by herself.

    Sure, they had husbands and children by them, so Gata/Aether Primolt gave us Umath, Ernalda/Orlanth gave us Barntar, Genert fathered a host of land goddesses to Gata and her daughters, but the Earth goddesses should be able to give birth without having a father involved.

    Genert and Pamalt were born without fathers – at least according to most stories. However, most myths agree that either Genert or Lodril fathered Ernalda and Maran Gor, and Voria is universally acknowledged as the daughter of Ernalda and Orlanth. Babeester Gor is usually without an identified father, although occasionally she is listed as the daughter of Ernalda and Orlanth. This myths are true, although not necessary exclusive.

    You may prefer something else, but these are the myths as passed on and experience (and likely as appearing in future materials).

    Jeff

    #6668
    Quote:
    Quote from Simon Phipp on January 5, 2014, 18:52
    Dendara:
    I don’t think that she is Entekos, despite what the Entekosiad tries to push.

    For the record: I don’t think that Dendara is Entekos, either – they do overlap on ownership of the Sunpath planet, but Entekos has Air and never wed Brightface, whereas Dendara has no air and is primarily happily wed.

    Dendara might be an aspect of Entekos, if that concept is still active.

    Quote:
    Oria has a very different origin, I think, based on my hazy recollections. The Pelandan Goddesses have their own origin stories, as I recall. Oria married Lodril, though, and they had a number of land goddesses.

    Oria is the Great Mother Goddess of Peloria, and traces her descent (and that of her sister Dendara) to the Green Age goddesses of Pelanda, which are largely unknown to the Theyalans. Oria is married to Lodril, Turos and/or some other Earth Walker or Volcano God. As Earth Walkers go, a foreign scholar might take them as aspects of Genert.

    Umath and Entekos:

    Quote:
    To my mind, Entekos was born when Umath lifted Aether Primolt from the earth. Where the two gods rubbed together, Entekos appeared. So, she protected Aether Primolt from the impure touch of Umath. Storm worshippers see her as the lofty and aloof High Air and Sky worshippers see her as the Lower Sky.

    That’s not how Entekosiad tells the story.

    IMO the Orlanthi will make a connection between Entekos and Molanni, if they happen to encounter a goddess of (stale) air from Peloria. As far as treatment of foreign deities goes, this will be fine mythically, but they won’t be able to use or exploit deeper secrets of Entekos.

    The forceful introduction of Entekos and Doburdun as ersatz-Storm Gods by the Lunar occupation forces in Sartar shows that there is some overlap – the Culbrea contribution to the Rebellion brings the Doburdun worshippers back into the mantle of Orlanth, probably making those thunder addi sticks obsolete in the process.

    However, just because many deities share certain mythic structures doesn’t make them identical. We have distinct myths of Yelmalio and Antirius at the Hill of Gold, and sometimes it is hard to say whether Antirius is fighting Orlanth or Zorak Zoran as Rebellus Terminus or Selfish God. There are myths which could be attributed to Zorak Zoran or Shargash (or aspects thereof). There might even be shared myths by Shargash and Orlanth when not bashing one another.

    There appears to be a fairly sharp border between the worship of Ernalda and the worship of Oria in Peloria – Sylila, Saird, Aggar, Skanthiland and the western Orlanthi tribes all worship Ernalda and don’t hold with Oria. Darjiin satrapy has some Oria worship, but focusses on Surenslib. Oronin satrapy and southern and eastern Carmania might be slightly mixed territory.

    I suppose the priestesses of Oria and Ernalda have mutual respect but very little in common rites, nor in shared parishoners.

    It is possible that a priestess of Oria would find her goddess at Ezel, and dimly recognize some of the Ernaldan rites there, but I doubt that she would be able to stand in for the leading role without extensive prior questing and studying. JarEel appears to have managed, but she had ample access to Ernaldan rites in the Provinces and in the legacy of HonEel. (I don’t see either as priestess of Oria.)

    #6669
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    Dendara/Entekos is an interesting one. She’s not a child of Umath. The Pelandans hold Dendara to be the daughter of Jernotia, who some Carmanian philosophers interestingly identified with Gata, and later Lunar philosophers identified with the mother of Sedenya. Although the Pelandans rarely identify Dendara’s father, some Lunar philosophers speculate that she is a daughter of Gata and Aether, like Sedenya and Umath.

    #6670
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator

    Thanks. I always liked this one. Skirting old controversies to (hopefully) take the conversation forward in two directions:

    SOUTH. At what point in history do the people “throughout central and western Genertela” learn enough about Pamalt to make space for him as the Earth Queen’s other son + husband?

    BACK. Does anyone in Glorantha remember a time when TKT and [E]srela had forgotten they were sisters? Their apparently separate-but-proximate origins as goddesses of Koravaka and primeval Nochet are evocative to say the least.

    #6673
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    SOUTH: The God Learners encounter the Fonritians and Doraddi in the Second Age (the date is in the Guide but I don’t have that open right now) and spread the name Pamalt as the Earth King of the southern continent. However, for the overwhelming majority of Genertelans, Pamalt is just the name for the ruler of a semi-legendary continent. Until the Opening (actually until some years after the Opening) nobody in Genertela was sure that Pamaltela even survived the Closing.

    BACK: The priestesses of the Earth Temple at Ezel say no such time ever existed – it was only the shattered civilizations of in Peloria, Prax, and Ralios who forgot that TKT and Asrelia were sisters. When it comes to the secrets of Earth, I’m inclined to defer to what the Esrolians say about the matter!

    #6675
    Profile photo of Scott Martin
    Scott Martin
    Spectator

    Thanks! Not about to gainsay the ladies in their own temple creed myself — their openness toward recognizing otherwise estranged mythic relations is a major source of their charm (and, I suspect, wealth) and besides, those axes look sharp.

    This time around the mention of the Southern Giant got me thinking in terms of Frazer instead of Graves, so it’s good to confirm when the binary of the god who died (G) & the god who lived (P) took root. For all I knew the files contain a secret teaching that the Waertagi brought detailed mythology of the far quarters back in the Dawn Age or whatever, which I might use for a mystery cult background somewhere but not GAG.

    Of course, we know now that various spear gods survived just fine up in the north but that material was relatively obscure until the God Learners were long gone.

    And those God Learners were not known for listening to the ladies, otherwise they might have found their own Entekosiad early on and the goddess switch would have gone better. Or worse! More likely, though, if they’d grown up listening to the ladies they never would have tried the switch in the first place.

    Excellent fodder for mystical Tarshite hoo-ha and other things. Thanks again.

    P.S. The Entekosiad just came up in my slideshow. The cover is red now? Nice!

    #6676
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    The Vadeli definitely knew of the two Earth Giants, and knew Pamalt more intimately than they did Genert. However, the Vadeli generally do not share their secrets – at least not for free.

Viewing 13 posts - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)

The forum ‘Glorantha Discussions’ is closed to new topics and replies.

Powered by WordPress. Designed by WooThemes