Home Forums Glorantha Glorantha Discussions Ernaldan Heroquesting

This topic contains 22 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Scott Martin Scott Martin 3 years, 6 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 23 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #5424
    Profile photo of Michael Hitchens
    Michael Hitchens
    Spectator

    Hi

    Another (hopefully not silly) question re Heroquesting.
    I’m assuming (please tell me if I’m wrong) that when an Heortling initiates to Ernalda (either coming of age or the later initiation) that it would, somewhere, involve them being in Ernalda’s place. I remember (from somewhere) that being described as being both next to Orlanth’s and surrounded by those of her relatives. Such is the nature of the other world.

    I would expect that normally if a Ernaldan from a Heortling culture went to Ernalda’s place on a Heroquest and stepped outside they would then find themselves in one or the other of those places. Or both, with the Storm Tribe encompassing her relatives.

    Now, what about an Esrolian? Given that in Esrolia Ernalda is said to have many suitors, with Orlanth only one, what would a Esrolian Enraldan heroquester find in Ernalda’s place? Perhaps doors leading to each of her suitors places in the Otherworld? And they could choose to go through anyone, depending on the myth they are following. Would a Heortling Ernaldan even see those doors? Or perhaps they go outside and all the suitors have smaller houses of their oen around Ernalda’s. The point is what they see would be different to their Heortling consins.

    I’m assuming that Esrolian Ernaldans *don’t* believe that their Goddess is currently monogamously married to Orlanth and all the other suitors are in the past. Instead, that all/most of the suitors are as current as each other. Which I’m sure makes for interesting discussions between Esrolian and Heortling Ernaldans.

    Michael

    #7846
    Profile photo of Charles
    Charles
    Keymaster

    Esrolians, Heortlendings, and most southern Sartarites are the same people with the same myths. They all agree that Orlanth had many wives and that Ernalda had many husbands. They agree that Orlanth and Ernalda are by far the most important and most favorite spouses for each other.

    The difference is that the Grandmothers, who hold most of the true power in Esrolia, are (in my opinion) seriously not nice people. The Grandmothers have, on occasion, even defied Ernalda in their efforts to hold onto temporal power. In their paranoia about the return of the Kodigvari royal house who, in theory, have the authority to take power away from the Grandmothers, the martial and leadership aspects of Orlanth are suppressed. The beliefs and myths are still known, but the rituals are likely considered close to capital crimes. Or, in other words, anyone that performs one of these rituals to Orlanth also volunteers to become the next human sacrifice to the goddesses.

    Both Orlanth and Ernalda have many homes. Each has their true home in their own realm. Each has their place at the top table in their spouses realm. And despite their size, their realms appear as one of the most important buildings near their spouses home at the center of that realm ( “Oh, it’s bigger on the inside” or even “It’s smaller on the outside” 😉 ). An Ernaldan questor can find their way from Ernalda’s place in the otherworld to Orlanth’s realm. But, without a guide, such as an Orlanth worshipper, they will find it more difficult (but not impossible) to step through one of the further links into the myths of Orlanth that do not involve Ernalda.

    Following up on a side note, many Northern Sartarites originate from Tarsh and before that from the southern and eastern greater Pelorian bowl. They have fundamentally the same myths but with many greater or lesser variations. Of course, over the 300 or so years, southern and northern Sartarites have intermarried and intermixed. And going back around 1,500 years, all were largely one people with pretty much the same myths.

    #7856
    Profile photo of Simon Phipp
    Simon Phipp
    Spectator

    Think of a Venn Diagram – The Storm Realm and Earth Realm have quite a big overlap, which is where Orlanthi/Ernaldans usually live. However, there are areas which are either all Earth or all Storm.

    Add in the Fire Realm and you get intersections between Earth/Fire, Earth/Storm, Fire/Storm and Earth/Fire/Storm.

    Yelmalians would live in the Earth/Fire intersection, for example.

    All a HeroQuestor would need to do to travel between the areas is to find a relevant HeroQuest.

    #7857
    Profile photo of Simon Phipp
    Simon Phipp
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from michaelh on May 10, 2014, 08:04
    Now, what about an Esrolian? Given that in Esrolia Ernalda is said to have many suitors, with Orlanth only one, what would a Esrolian Enraldan heroquester find in Ernalda’s place? Perhaps doors leading to each of her suitors places in the Otherworld? And they could choose to go through anyone, depending on the myth they are following. Would a Heortling Ernaldan even see those doors? Or perhaps they go outside and all the suitors have smaller houses of their oen around Ernalda’s. The point is what they see would be different to their Heortling consins.

    Ernalda was married to different Husband-Protectors at different times.

    First came Yelm, then Orlamnth, when Orlanth went away Yelmalio took his place, then Doburdan, then Argan Argar and so on, until Orlanth returned.

    Each HeroQuest relates to a certain time and place in God Time, so the Husband Protector at the time should be known and easy to access.

    A HeroQuest to Ernalda at Yelm’s Court would have a door to Yelm and, maybe, a door to Orlanth the Suitor.

    A HeroQuest to King Orlanth’s time would have many doors to Orlanth.

    A later HeroQuest might have a door to Yelmalio, or Doburdan or Argan Argar or whoever is protecting her at that time.

    Quote:
    Quote from michaelh on May 10, 2014, 08:04I’m assuming that Esrolian Ernaldans *don’t* believe that their Goddess is currently monogamously married to Orlanth and all the other suitors are in the past. Instead, that all/most of the suitors are as current as each other. Which I’m sure makes for interesting discussions between Esrolian and Heortling Ernaldans.

    Even Esrolian Ernaldans know that Orlanth is Ernalda’s current husband. However, they know that Ernalda needed many husbands in the past and they know how to deal with each of them.

    Imagine an episode of “Last of the Summer Wine” – the Ernaldans are the women of Yorkshire and the Husband Protectors are the henpecked, put-upon, hapless menfolk who need to be kept in their place.

    #7863
    Profile photo of Roko Joko
    Roko Joko
    Spectator

    Greg insisted “there are not two religions, but one, which is of Orlanth and Ernalda” (http://www.glorantha.com/docs/understanding-windstop-and-esrolia/) but personally, meh.

    IMG Esrolians and Heortlanders “all agree that Orlanth had many wives and that Ernalda had many husbands,” but they don’t “agree that Orlanth and Ernalda are by far the most important and most favorite spouses for each other.” “All/most of the suitors are as current as each other” is cooler. “The Grandmothers are seriously not nice people” sounds like it could be interesting on top of that.

    I’m not especially attracted to the Windstop affecting Ernalda either. (The Windstop in general doesn’t really appeal to me anyway. It’s too monomyth. The Lunars have air gods. They wouldn’t be ignorant enough to destroy all wind, much less all agricultural fertility. I can think of traits that could hurt them, but that’s not one of them.)

    #7864
    Profile photo of Charles
    Charles
    Keymaster

    Very indirectly addressing @Roko Joko’s points and maybe giving more context to my reply to the original questions from @michaelh
    It’s worth looking at the populations of cultural Orlanthi type peoples in the greater Dragon Pass region (not all of whom worship Ernalda or Orlanth). All figures in approximate millions.
    Esrolia:…… 1.75
    Heortland:.. 0.65
    Caladraland: 0.45
    Tarsh:…….. 0.36
    Sartar:……. 0.12
    There are more Esrolians than all of the rest put together.
    In my opinion, to have that huge population riven by internal factions is more interesting both for gaming Glorantha and for literary Glorantha. The Esrolians don’t care about the others except as it might provide advantage or disadvantage in their games for dominance in their area, one of the richest (likely the richest) in all Glorantha.

    #7878
    Profile photo of David Summers
    David Summers
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from Roko Joko on May 13, 2014, 15:15
    Greg insisted “there are not two religions, but one, which is of Orlanth and Ernalda” (http://www.glorantha.com/docs/understanding-windstop-and-esrolia/) but personally, meh.

    IMG Esrolians and Heortlanders “all agree that Orlanth had many wives and that Ernalda had many husbands,” but they don’t “agree that Orlanth and Ernalda are by far the most important and most favorite spouses for each other.” “All/most of the suitors are as current as each other” is cooler. “The Grandmothers are seriously not nice people” sounds like it could be interesting on top of that.

    I’m not especially attracted to the Windstop affecting Ernalda either. (The Windstop in general doesn’t really appeal to me anyway. It’s too monomyth. The Lunars have air gods. They wouldn’t be ignorant enough to destroy all wind, much less all agricultural fertility. I can think of traits that could hurt them, but that’s not one of them.)

    I agree. If you accept 10,000 Goddesses, and that each culture has a mythology that is as “true” as anyone else’s, then Windstop affecting Esrolian Ernaldans just doesn’t make sense to me.

    Now maybe that part is “not canon” now, but then it seems to me you have take part of what made Esrolia what it is and subjugated it.

    #7880
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    The canonical take is that Windstop affected Ernalda. Whether the Red Emperor and House Assiday truly intended the results of their great ritual is unknown. Certainly most Lunars did not expect that the fall of Whitewall would result in the death of Orlanth and Ernalda, but the wisdom of the Red Emperor is beyond the ken of mortals.

    Ernalda had many lovers and husbands, but even the Esrolian grandmothers acknowledge that Orlanth is the “beloved” of Ernalda. The priestesses of Ezel offer sacrifices to the cult of Beloved Orlanth, Orlanth has a Great Temple in Nochet (although outside the city walls), and so on. At the end of the day, the Esrolians *are* Orlanthi.

    #7881
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    Quote from Charles Corrigan on May 10, 2014, 11:00
    Esrolians, Heortlendings, and most southern Sartarites are the same people with the same myths. They all agree that Orlanth had many wives and that Ernalda had many husbands. They agree that Orlanth and Ernalda are by far the most important and most favorite spouses for each other.

    This is key. The Esrolians and the Heortlings worship the same group of gods, speak closely related languages, share the same basic corpus of myths, etc. All agree that Ernalda is the Earth Queen, and that Ernalda took many gods as lovers. All agree that Ernalda tamed Orlanth and civilized the wild god. All agree that Orlanth is the beloved of Ernalda.

    The big difference between the Esrolians and the Heortlings is the Grandmothers. In Esrolia, the Grandmothers seized power from the divine Vingkotling kings and established a matriarchy. They acknowledge Orlanth but diminish his dangerous and destructive presence in much of Esrolia (particularly Nochet). But Orlanth is always still there in the background.

    #7894
    Profile photo of Michael Hitchens
    Michael Hitchens
    Spectator

    Thanks for the answers. Just for clarification, how much of “Orlanth is Dead” (and “Gathering Thunder” for that matter) are still canonical?

    #7897
    Profile photo of David Scott
    David Scott
    Keymaster

    Read this about canon first! http://www.glorantha.com/docs/canon/

    Although Orlanth is Dead isn’t listed as canon in that article most of it is still accurate. A rough rule of thumb is that where it conflicts with Sartar, Companion, Pavis and the guide – they are correct. The timeline is correct, your clan is superseded by Sartar:KoH, the whole Heortling warfare section is probably okay, but as you are probably aware research is ongoing –

    http://www.glorantha.com/sketch-of-a-sartarite-clan-militia-member/
    http://www.glorantha.com/sketch-of-an-sartarite-household-warrior/
    http://www.glorantha.com/sketch-of-a-sartarite-thane/

    The campaign itself is very playable (I ran the whole trilogy, only the last book is not all up to scratch). The battle is for the Hero Wars rules set and so a bit clunky (perhaps better with some kind of skirmish war-game). But correct and is covered in Wyrm’s footnote 15 – which is canon.

    Windstop is correct, and covered in the Guide – https://plus.google.com/u/0/s/windstop.

    Gathering Thunder was my least favourite of the three, although the campaign is still playable. Likewise use the rule of thumb with Sartar, Companion, Pavis and the guide. Be aware that Doburdun has been removed and the all of the myriad of subcults and runes that exploded with Thunder rebels and cults of Sartar have been put back in the box, taking them back to their RQ2/3 simplicity, the new publication trump those.

    Getting a guardian is now a simpler process under HQ2.

    Orane’s Spindle is a highpoint (Ian Cooper is writing the forthcoming Coming Storm) and The Skyship is a low point (it looks like it was based on some rough notes of Greg’s and fleshed out). Although this event does happen, is canon, it would probably look very different if written now and used the Heroquesting section of Sartar. Players are also second fiddle to Kallyr.

    #7899
    Profile photo of Michael Hitchens
    Michael Hitchens
    Spectator

    Thanks. At least knowing the timeline and broad outline is as in those books is enough to work with.

    PS I kind of liked the extra runes, if only as descriptive colour. Things that could be used on shrines, votive statues and tatoos.

    #7900
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    The personal runes for gods and concepts are nice descriptive color and are exactly the sort of thing that might be tattooed on a cult member. However, they were more symbols than players and GMs could reasonably be expected to remember and manipulate. There’s a reason that alphabets with 12 to 58 characters proved more popular (and easier to master) than more complex writing systems with hundreds of signs.

    #7901
    Profile photo of Niall
    Niall
    Spectator
    Quote:
    Quote from David Scott on May 18, 2014, 00:25 Be aware that Doburdun has been removed

    What do you mean by removed? Bit confused, does that mean he doesn’t exist? He’s in the Sartar companion worshipped in Runegate.

    #7902
    Profile photo of Jeff Richard
    Jeff Richard
    Keymaster

    That’s something of an overstatement – Doburdan is the patron god of the Black Oak Brotherhood, a small band of some 25 mercenaries and outlaws. The cult is used by the Lunars as a tame storm god cult, but it is ignored outside of the Lunarized centers. Doburdan is not an popular or widespread cult in Dragon Pass by any measure and without Lunar support it would likely rapidly disappear.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 23 total)

The forum ‘Glorantha Discussions’ is closed to new topics and replies.

Powered by WordPress. Designed by WooThemes